Its also the case that even our complex systems are not easy to navigate and that the wiki system can be very confusing for new users beyond just the complexity of our bureaucracy. In the example that sparked this conversation, the new editor struggled to understand the difference between deletion review and requests for undulation. There are good reasons for both these pages - but even their staunchest defenders would have to concede that these pages are hardly a model of clarity and design. We could probably help the situation a lot by putting in some effort to improve the user experience of our bureaucracy and thinking about how each "wikipedia" page appears to new editors and attempting to make them simpler to grasp - without changing any of our underlying policies.
-- Alasdair On Monday, 5 December 2011 at 23:08, Nathan wrote: > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Charles Matthews > <charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com (mailto:charles.r.matth...@ntlworld.com)> > wrote: > > > > > > > AfD can get it wrong: I suppose that is common ground. "Notability" as a > > concept is broken, always has been, always will be (my view, not > > necessarily the majority view given the status given to the GNG by some). > > In some cases it is really not a big deal whether a topic is included or > > not: there obviously is a level at which quite a number of reasonable > > people are pretty much indifferent to the outcome. The same people would > > not, presumably, be indifferent to the decision not being by "due process". > > There is an appeal against AfD's process aspect. Anyone can navigate there. > > > > I think we first need to analyse whether this is a "manual page" problem or > > a "complaint procedure" problem. (Actually I'm going to put in a plug for > > "How Wikipedia Works" at this point: look in the index under "deletion", > > "deletion review" is on p. 226 and the page tells you what to do. If the > > guy really wanted to impress his colleague he could have done that.) If > > he'd mailed OTRS and got an unhelpful answer, I really would worry. > > > > Look, the whole point of HWW or any other serious explanation about how we > > got this far that people are so bothered about our content is that you have > > to admit that: (a) the system does work, and is fit for the main purpose > > for which it was set up (contra Tony's view); and (b) it's complicated. > > There are no doubt people out there, in millions, who don't realise that > > you probably can't have (a) without (b). You surely could have (a) if you > > had enough paid staff, a skyscraper full of them (well, maybe 5000 > > graduates); and if you paid yet more you could give an impression that (b) > > didn't apply. The service would not be free at the point of use unless a > > large charitable foundation was picking up the bill. The complication in > > (b) is to do with decentralisation: multiple processes running in different > > places, as the only solution that is known to scale. > > > > I can quite see why people do think Wikipedia "Byzantine", which is the > > basic message of what we are talking about. Probably trainee medics curse > > the immune system as unreasonably complicated. The metaphor doesn't seem to > > me either too defensive or too stretched. I think we should bear in mind > > that more and better written "manual pages" would only work better if > > people had the basic humility to read instructions, at least in the context > > of complex systems they don't understand. > > > > Charles > > You're making the argument that some complex systems (bureaucracy) are > necessary and intrinsic to the success of the project. I think most > people would agree. People are not challenging the existence of any > bureaucracy; they're saying there is too much, that it's too difficult > for the average person, and that we hallow bureaucracy and its mastery > above more important considerations. > > Nathan > > _______________________________________________ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org (mailto:WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org) > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
