Just +1 on the stfu. Le 16 nov. 2015 7:53 AM, "Christophe Henner" <christophe.hen...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> I'm sorry but just shut the fuck up about "religion". > > They're bloodlusty assholes that wanted to kill and divide. Nothing more. > > It's not a religious thing (Paris isn't à holy city) or a cultural thing. > It's hate. Simple and plain hate. > > They'd like us to say it's about religion and culture. Because that jump > starts the next sentence, it's us versus them where us has a better > culture. And then to start discriminating in our own country. > > Because us vs them is the basis of any racist speech. > > So please stop making it about culture and religion. Or if you want to make > it about culture, make it about the real culture they attacked : tolerance, > understanding, love. > > That would the best answer we could make. > > Thanks > > PS: sorry for this email I don't usually send those but hey after that > week-end I couldn't restrain myself > Le 16 nov. 2015 7:24 AM, "Isaac David" <isacdaa...@isacdaavid.info> a > écrit : > > > Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > a écrit : > > > >> Hoi, > >> Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who > >> beliefs > >> on one pile. > >> > > > > I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the > > problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally > on > > the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being > > violent. > > > > Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to > >> get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that. > >> > > > > I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of > how > > faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the > claims > > are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off > > the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated > and > > unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and > > second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and > > bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as > far > > as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I > > didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely > > dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, > > whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however > > disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of > > Muslims. > > > > > > As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its > >> interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct > >> questions. > >> Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars, > >> > > > > "Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that > > they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an > excuse > > to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make > > mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the > problem > > at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do. > > > > any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points. > >> > > > > I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this > > doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded > religion > > and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that > > said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, > > specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition > of > > Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon > > by big fractions of Muslims.[1] > > > > By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the > > subject of this thread. > > Regards > > > > [1]: > > > http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf > > > >> > >> Thanks, > >> GerardM > >> > >> On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <isacdaa...@isacdaavid.info> > >> wrote: > >> > >> <sarcasm> > >>> Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, > >>> Christians, > >>> etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something > >>> horrible > >>> in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has > >>> nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some > >>> other > >>> historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be > >>> linking > >>> bad guys with good guys. > >>> </sarcasm> > >>> > >>> But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't? > >>> > >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman > >>> > >>> > >>> Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <jay...@gmail.com> > a > >>> écrit : > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are > >>>>> not > >>>>> about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a > >>>>> reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its > >>>>> unfortunately > >>>>> its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS. > >>>>> > >>>>> Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores > >>>>> all > >>>>> our > >>>>> other communities who have over the last week, months. year or > longer > >>>>> have > >>>>> been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care > >>>>> when we > >>>>> adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of > >>>>> association > >>>>> immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with > >>>> Islam. > >>>> The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being > >>>> neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are > >>>> being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a > >>>> worldwide perspective. > >>>> > >>>> However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not > >>>> because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because > >>>> some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the > >>>> world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better > >>>> protected, and that creates an elevation of its own. > >>>> > >>>> I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a > measured > >>>> way. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Gallery > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> John Vandenberg > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
