I agree with the last part of Vito's message. For languages where '''all''' the speakers speak another lingua franca, I think such process does not have real value. The speakers will always go read in the bigger language because the article is most likely to be better. The advantages of having their own Wikipedia is to be able to express knowledge in their own way according to their own culture.
Jean-Philippe Béland Vice President, Wikimedia Canada On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 12:09 PM Vi to <vituzzu.w...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness. > > I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a > better way by others: > *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of > translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification > requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves; > *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural identity > of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a > different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses > about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet; > *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural > identity (and biases) of the Western culture; > *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable > Wikipedians. > > IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise texts > of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies > (wiktionary). > > Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be > dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of > specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of > its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of > Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about him > in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake "literary" > language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting" in > Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one. > > As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create, > knowledge. > > Vito > > 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>: > > > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a > > statement about my present experience about translators in general. > > > > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized > > area is that there is a small community, and within this community some > > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the > remaining > > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and there > > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of > > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a > > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health > > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but > > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find > > a retired > > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout… > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a > > new > > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have > > involvement > > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the > > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be > involved / > > > have translations from TWB. > > > > > > James > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from > small > > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more > > > interesting > > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland < > > > > jpbel...@wikimedia.ca > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the > concerned > > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my > > simple > > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again. > > > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland > > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less > > > > interesting > > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the > > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles > should > > > > also > > > > > be > > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical > > > > articles, > > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty > > small. > > > > > > > > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a > new > > > > > editor! > > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad < > > jeb...@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all > articles > > > are > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the > > > project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made > > efforts > > > > > more > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to > see > > > that > > > > > > tool > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of > > > > articles > > > > > > that > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also > > > love > > > > > the > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty > > obvious. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our > > partner > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that > > languages > > > > in > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and > > Italian > > > > > there > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in > > > > question. > > > > > > The > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert > Wikipedia. > > > And > > > > > for > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few > > > > > avaliable > > > > > > >> volunteers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance > > of > > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would > > > > require > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking > > the > > > > > work > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or > so > > > > > > languages > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo > a > > > > second > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to > > be > > > > > > >> accepted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It > is > > as > > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the > > > project?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman < > jmh...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project > > > which > > > > > > >> started back in 2011: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all > > articles > > > > are > > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on > EN > > > WP. > > > > > Thus > > > > > > >> we > > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the > leads > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > >> English articles. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made > > > efforts > > > > > more > > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to > see > > > that > > > > > > tool > > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of > > > > articles > > > > > > that > > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also > > > love > > > > > the > > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our > > > partner > > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that > > languages > > > > in > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and > > Italian > > > > > there > > > > > > >> is > > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in > > > > question. > > > > > > The > > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert > Wikipedia. > > > And > > > > > for > > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few > > > > > avaliable > > > > > > >> volunteers. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would > > > > require > > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking > > the > > > > > work > > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or > so > > > > > > languages > > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo > a > > > > second > > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to > > be > > > > > > >> accepted. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a > > couple > > > of > > > > > > >> years. > > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or > > learn > > > > how > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like > TransSW001 > > > > (one > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated > into > > > > > Content > > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user > > name > > > > and > > > > > > >> password to the account. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000 > leads > > > of > > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for > translation. > > > This > > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO > > > > Essential > > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts > > have > > > > > > >> resulted > > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into > > > > different > > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his > > real > > > > job > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> teaching high school students. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The > > > > > > Wikipedian > > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has > basically > > > > single > > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a > language > > > > spoken > > > > > > by > > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that > > for > > > > many > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online > about > > > it. > > > > > > >> Google > > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our > > > > > partnerships > > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate > > into > > > > > > Chinese. > > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are > > > > reviewed > > > > > by > > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups > using > > > > > hackpad > > > > > > to > > > > > > >> make it more social. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-) > > > > > > >> James > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad < > > > jeb...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than > > 65k > > > > > > >> articles, > > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid > > translators? > > > > > There > > > > > > >> are > > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand > > > > articles > > > > > > from > > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and > the > > > ten > > > > > > >> thousand > > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2]. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per > > word > > > > > > (about > > > > > > >> $1 > > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into > > > > another > > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in > > > high-cost > > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for > languages > > > that > > > > > > lacks > > > > > > >> > good translation tools. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the > > > > communities, > > > > > as > > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to > build a > > > > > > >> community at > > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating > > > > > > >> well-referenced > > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be > > > > avoided. > > > > > > >> Perhaps > > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be > a > > > > help. > > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but > > they > > > > does > > > > > > not > > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles > > other > > > > > > >> projects > > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so > > they > > > > > need > > > > > > a > > > > > > >> lot > > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our > > > inherit > > > > > > bias? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > [1] > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_ > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have > > > > > > >> > [2] > > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_ > > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > > >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > > > , > > > > > > >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > > >> James Heilman > > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > > > > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > > > > > > >> i/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > > , > > > > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > > > unsubscribe> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > James Heilman > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
