I would like to suggest to move away from the 'membership organization' question, and possibly bring that to a dedicated thread. It's a huge topic.
Lodewijk On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 1:37 PM Michael Peel <em...@mikepeel.net> wrote: > That the WMF *isn’t* a membership organisation already is rather weird. It > may be specific to US organisations (in which case, references please), but > it really isn’t normal on an international basis, nor within the Wikimedia > movement (most/all affiliates have members). > > Having to provide legal names and addresses may be a problem for some, but > definitely not all Wikimedians. Similar with membership fees, particularly > if it is set to a nominal value, and if there are ways of waving the fees > if needed. > > Governance issues definitely change - e.g., if you worry about an > organisational take-over, then it’s no longer the board you have to worry > about but the membership - but you have larger numbers of membership. > However, it wouldn’t prevent things like movement-wide elections, they > would just have to be ratified by a membership rather than the board. > > It’s something that is worth thinking more about. > > Thanks, > Mike > > > On 8 Oct 2020, at 18:55, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Functionaries (checkusers, oversighters, stewards, OTRS members, and > people > > with similar advanced permissions) have not been required to provide > their > > personal information - name, DOB, address - for years. They simply sign > > off a type of confidentiality agreement with their username. > > > > Risker/Anne > > > > On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 at 13:52, Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Well, you could always do a nominal membership contribution, like a > penny, > >> or sponsorships for those who wish to join but don't have the money. > Since > >> WMF makes its money primarily from donations, there's really no need > for it > >> to actually sustain itself from membership fees. > >> > >> So far as requiring non-pseudonymous membership, I don't think there's > any > >> requirement that such member lists be made public. So it would work a > lot > >> like functionaries giving their information for the private access > policy; > >> they are required to verify their identity, but that will be held > privately > >> and not available to the public. So for all intents and purposes, > >> pseudonymous membership would still be possible. > >> > >> Todd > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 11:46 AM Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >>> Without needing to go into further detail, it is because to be a > >> membership > >>> organization, pseudonyms aren't acceptable; all members must provide > >> their > >>> full legal names and addresses. I also cannot think of a membership > >>> organization that does not charge a membership fee, although I suppose > it > >>> is possible; but anything requiring a financial contribution would > limit > >>> the membership to those who have the money to pay to join, which is > >>> antithetical to the movement's philosophy. > >>> > >>> Risker/Anne > >>> > >>> On Thu, 8 Oct 2020 at 13:41, Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Why would we "not want it to be a membership organization"? In fact, > >> many > >>>> of us want exactly that, since the WMF seems to think it can lord it > >> over > >>>> the communities instead of fulfilling its role of serving them. > >>>> > >>>> The new Board rules basically say that the Board itself gets to say > how > >>> the > >>>> community-based members are selected, instead of having actual bylaws > >> as > >>> to > >>>> how it happens. I'd like to see it done very simply: Those eight seats > >>>> (forming a majority) on the Board should be elected (not nominated, > >>>> elected) by the community, with the Board having no veto power over > the > >>>> results of the election. > >>>> > >>>> Todd > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:45 PM Brad Patrick <bradp....@gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> This is a very, very old and tired argument. If you do not understand > >>>>> United States non-profit corporations, go educate yourself about > >> those > >>>>> first. If your perspective is non-US based, you may have a different > >>>> frame > >>>>> of mind which is irreconcilable with the way WMF is. Take all the > >> time > >>>> you > >>>>> need to see the differences before attacking WMF for (a) what it is > >> and > >>>> (b) > >>>>> why it isn't what you want it to be. > >>>>> > >>>>> WMF exists legally, and has as its foundation organizational > >> principle, > >>>>> authority vested in a Board. WMF is not a membership organization. > >> You > >>>>> would not want it to be a membership organization (as a matter of > >> law). > >>>>> > >>>>> Please temper your criticism accordingly. > >>>>> > >>>>> Brad Patrick > >>>>> Former WMF General Counsel > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10/7/20, 12:47 PM, "Wikimedia-l on behalf of Paulo Santos > >> Perneta" > >>> < > >>>>> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org on behalf of > >>>>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I knew they are theoretically self-appointed, but was under the > >>>>> impression > >>>>> that at least until now an appearance of democracy and legitimacy > >>>>> towards > >>>>> the community has been respected, which no longer seems to be the > >>>> case. > >>>>> I wonder what would be the legitimacy of a self-appointing body > >> in > >>>> the > >>>>> eyes > >>>>> of the Wikimedia Movement, and all the communities which are part > >>> of > >>>>> it? > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> Paulo > >>>>> > >>>>> Adam Wight <adam.wi...@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia quarta, > >>>>> 7/10/2020 à(s) > >>>>> 17:20: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Greetings, this is a semiautomated response pointing out that > >> the > >>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation Board is not elected, it's > >> self-appointing. > >>>> The > >>>>>> so-called "elections" are in fact nominations to be considered > >> by > >>>> the > >>>>>> Board. Therefore, the Bylaws have not been broken. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is an unfortunate arrangement, please see [1] for some > >>>>> background > >>>>>> about the conversion from a membership organization to a > >>>>> non-membership > >>>>>> organization which is no longer legally required to hold > >>> elections. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Adam W. > >>>>>> [[mw:User:Adamw]] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_membership_controversy > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 10/7/20 5:55 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta wrote: > >>>>>>> The terms of 3 BoT members expired last month, and the BoT > >>> itself > >>>>> decided > >>>>>>> to extend them? What is the legitimacy of that? And why is a > >>> BoT > >>>>> which is > >>>>>>> expected to be in a mere interim management waiting for > >>>> elections, > >>>>>>> presenting profound changes to its Bylaws [1]? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> [1] - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/October_2020_-_Proposed_Bylaws_changes > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>> Paulo > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Nataliia Tymkiv <ntym...@wikimedia.org> escreveu no dia > >>> quarta, > >>>>>> 7/10/2020 > >>>>>>> à(s) 16:49: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I can answer a few of the questions raised in this thread. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> When the Board postponed the community selection of > >> trustees, > >>> we > >>>>> also > >>>>>>>> extended the terms of the trustees in the affected seats > >>> (María > >>>>>> Sefidari, > >>>>>>>> Dariusz Jemielniak, and James Heilman)[1]. Their terms were > >>>>> originally > >>>>>> set > >>>>>>>> to expire last month, but because of that term extension > >> they > >>>> are > >>>>> still > >>>>>>>> serving as trustees, and as such María remains the Board > >> Chair > >>>> and > >>>>>> Dariusz > >>>>>>>> and James continue on as Committee Chairs[2]. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Raju Narisetti and Esra'a Al Shafei have been reappointed to > >>> the > >>>>> Board > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> an additional three-year term[3][4]. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The current members of the Board of Trustees are listed on > >> the > >>>>> Wikimedia > >>>>>>>> Foundation website[5]. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We do not currently have a shortage of trustees on the > >> Board, > >>>> and > >>>>> we > >>>>>> have > >>>>>>>> had a quorum for every decision we have made this year. We > >>> have > >>>>>> published > >>>>>>>> some outstanding Board records, many of which were just > >>> approved > >>>>> at our > >>>>>>>> recent meeting in September[6][7]. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I have just sent an email to this list, as well as posted an > >>>>> update to > >>>>>>>> Meta-Wiki, with a request for feedback on matters related to > >>> the > >>>>>>>> Foundation’s Bylaws and trustee selection[8]. That > >>> announcement > >>>>> contains > >>>>>>>> more information about the postponed community selection of > >>>>> trustees. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best regards, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> antanana / Nataliia Tymkiv > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Vice Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [1] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Postponement_of_Community_Selection_of_Trustees_and_Extension_of_Community_Selected_Trustee_Terms_until_next_selection_process > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [2] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Board_Officers_and_Committee_Membership,_2019 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [3] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Renewing_Raju_Narisetti%27s_Appointment_to_the_Board_of_Trustees,_2020 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [4] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Renewing_Esra%27a_Al_Shafei%27s_Appointment_to_the_Board_of_Trustees,_2020 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [5] https://wikimediafoundation.org/role/board/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [6] https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetings > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [7] https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolutions > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [8] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/October_2020_-_Call_for_feedback_about_Bylaws_changes_and_Board_candidate_rubric > >>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2020_-_Call_for_feedback_about_Bylaws_changes_and_Board_candidate_rubric > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> *NOTICE: You may have received this message outside of your > >>>> normal > >>>>>> working > >>>>>>>> hours/days, as I usually can work more as a volunteer during > >>>>> weekend. > >>>>>> You > >>>>>>>> should not feel obligated to answer it during your days off. > >>>>> Thank you > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>>> advance!* > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 9:52 PM Bill Takatoshi < > >>>>> billtakato...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> After I asked my questions on September 4, I was sent the > >>>> message > >>>>>>>>> below by some role account I've never heard of, asking > >> about > >>>>> claims > >>>>>>>>> that have used the names of five other people. I don't edit > >>>>> under my > >>>>>>>>> real name, but I have never used the names in the linked > >>> forum > >>>>>>>>> postings. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The linked posts also claim that the Foundation's nonprofit > >>>>> status is > >>>>>>>>> at risk. I am not a lawyer, but I am skeptical of that > >> claim > >>>> even > >>>>>>>>> though five Trustees whose three-year terms expired in > >> August > >>>>>>>>> apparently voted on a Resolution in a Board meeting on > >>>> September > >>>>> 24. > >>>>>>>>> According to Section 4 of the Bylaws, "A quorum shall > >> consist > >>>> of > >>>>> a > >>>>>>>>> majority of Trustees then in office." Section 6 says, "the > >>>> Board > >>>>> may > >>>>>>>>> continue doing business as a Board during the vacancy of > >> any > >>>>> Trustee > >>>>>>>>> position." Therefore, since four of the five remaining > >>> Trustees > >>>>> all > >>>>>>>>> voted in favor, the Resolution was properly carried, in my > >>>>> layperson's > >>>>>>>>> view. I am less certain about the propriety of allowing a > >>>> Trustee > >>>>>>>>> whose three year term expired to continue to serve as > >> Chair. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The lack of any update or even ETA for an update on > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/2020#Postpone%3F > >>>>>>>>> is baffling. Elections have never been held in person, only > >>>>> online, > >>>>>>>>> and so the excuse that they were postponed because of the > >>>>> pandemic > >>>>>>>>> crisis seems extremely suspicious. Indefinitely delaying > >>>>> elections for > >>>>>>>>> such a vacuous reason makes the Foundation look like the > >>> worst > >>>>> of the > >>>>>>>>> bad actors in today's international political climate. > >>> Doesn't > >>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> cancelled travel of the pandemic crisis give the Foundation > >>>> more > >>>>> time > >>>>>>>>> to hold elections, not less? Whether non-profit status is > >> at > >>>>> risk or > >>>>>>>>> not, I would hope that the Foundation, Board, and Elections > >>>>> Committee > >>>>>>>>> would be more interested in upholding the principles of > >> good > >>>>>>>>> governance than failing to even announce a new schedule or > >>> even > >>>>> a date > >>>>>>>>> by which a new schedule will be announced. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -Will > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:31 PM Gender Desk < > >>>>> genderscr...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Mr. Takatoshi, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Wikipediocracy has suggested that you have also used the > >>> names > >>>>> "Rogol > >>>>>>>>> Domedonfors, Renée Bagslint, Jennifer Pryor-Summers, > >> Felicity > >>>>> Braingut, > >>>>>>>>> Thomas Townsend and others." > >>>>>>>>> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11567 > >>>>>>>>>> Can you comment on that? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>> Genderdesk > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> genderdesk.wordpress.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 7:38 PM Samuel Klein < > >>>> meta...@gmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Can anyone from the elections committee comment? What is > >>> the > >>>>> current > >>>>>>>>>> plan? //S > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 8:05 PM Bill Takatoshi < > >>>>>> billtakato...@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> How long can the Foundation legally postpone Board of > >>>> Trustees > >>>>>>>>> elections? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/2020#Postpone%3F > >>>>>>>>>>> has a comment from April saying, "Once things get moving > >>>> again, > >>>>>>>>>>> appopriate [sic] date for the election will be decided > >> and > >>> an > >>>>>>>>>>> announcement will be made." > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_of_Trustees#Current_members > >>>>>>>>>>> suggests that five board members terms end on "Wikimania > >>>> 2020" > >>>>> -- but > >>>>>>>>>>> is that accurate? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Resolution:Term_Limit_Proposal_for_Bylaws > >>>>>>>>>>> is clear that "All Board terms are three years" and "the > >>> term > >>>>> of each > >>>>>>>>>>> such appointment shall not exceed three years." > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Who are the current members of the Board of Trustees? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Can the board achieve a quorum in its present state? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Who is the Chair currently? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj > >>> +1 > >>>>> 617 529 > >>>>>>>>> 4266 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > >> and > >>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > 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