I have been on both ends of this as a manufacturer. I made airborne PBX systems that were installed in the avionics bay of head-of-state, military command and control and corporate fleet aircraft. Almost got airforce1. (I could only do 48 phones and they needed more!) I was very proud of that product line and made good money. We had one point of distribution and installation. But I will take our current situation of a half dozen distributors selling to hundreds of customers a product line that has a couple of dozen low cost items any day. ----- Original Message ----- From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a "few" of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a "longer-term" view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got "left behind" with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles ------------------------------------------- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles ------------------------------------------- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org><mailto:wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a "premium" service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a "WiMAX" system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only "interoperability" testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz & 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily "slant" the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself into a "proprietary" implementation of your WiMAX system 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes out at an aggregate "throughput" range of ~10 Mbps per AP To get better performance (up to 20 Mbps / AP), I give up interoperability 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) At the expense of interoperability 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) Ubiquiti Lightstations are sub-$100 Tranzeos / Deliberant / whatever are in the $100-200 range Motorola Canopy / Alvarion is in the $200-300 range Oh, and they (just like WiMAX) are basically proprietary 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls ) Carrier Class = $10k APs If you're willing to spend $10k for an AP - you can get a proprietary 'WISP' system that has all the "carrier-class" features of "WiMAX" 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning and management of subscribers and base stations. Lol...I find this amusing...as the WiMAX specification "overcomplicates" the provisioning process, so you now have the need to purchase a system to simplify provisioning so it will work like a Canopy / Trango / Tranzeo / Alvarion =) Supply and Demand at its best =/ That said, if you are still interested in WiMAX after this "cold dose of reality," we have plenty of radios in stock =) -Charles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org<mailto:wireless@wispa.org> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org<mailto:wireless@wispa.org> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org<mailto:wireless@wispa.org> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
