I am using 5830 products - is this not the latest point to multipoint product Trango has to offer (in the 5.8 band)?
>>The only possible reasons you could get that spread was if you were not comparing equivellent anntennas or doing something wrong, or had a bad batch of radios, or something, but it was not inline with the capabilty of the product. *Using 5830AP and 5830S SU (non-ext), to my knowledge you're stuck with the panel for the AP but the SU you can use an external antenna but for a mere 7mi that didn't seem worth it. I believe there were 2 radios on that customer's grain bin before the MT AP was up, but I could be wrong. It was installed years before my time.* >>You can;t jsut ignore that Trango offers a 24dbi antenna (Fox) stock for its under $350 price tag. Thats part of it's value proposition. You could argue that you don;t like Dishes, but that is not what you said. If you test Trango 5830 that is a 18db antenna, and you must also use a 18db antenna with the MT, for a fair comparison, which the 5830 ext can accommodate. *I can see the arguement of the stock 18db antenna versus 23db MT antenna, however I've yet to see where I can get a 5830S-EXT for anything less then $500 (I'm only seeing the Trango website's price). Keep in mind the MT setup I am using is $220. Can you tell me where to find these Fox units for $350? I am also interested in knowing if anyone has had good success with the Fox product line as I certainly have not. I have only seen three or four of them on a tower way north of where our network lives, unsure of their purpose.* Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:00 AM, Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Josh, > > I did not mean to be disrespectful in my comments, but some of the > information that you posted was not factual, and was misleading. > > You compared the older and most expesnive trango (because itwas old > technology) with the Newest less expensive Mikrotik. > That is not apples to apples. t minimum you should be comparingthe latest > generation of each product line. > It was sorta like me saying, all Alvarions are expensive because they have > $1500 CPEs (which they do), without disclosing the fact that Alvarion also > has a $350 CPE (which they do)designed to compete for WISP's business. > > Second, the RSSI levels that you represented were impossible if you were > doing apples to apples comparison. Trango and MT have mPCI cards that > transmit at just about the same TX power. (Trango 22db). The only possible > reasons you could get that spread was if you were not comparing equivellent > anntennas or doing something wrong, or had a bad batch of radios, or > something, but it was not inline with the capabilty of the product. You > can;t jsut ignore that Trango offers a 24dbi antenna (Fox) stock for its > under $350 price tag. Thats part of it's value proposition. You could argue > that you don;t like Dishes, but that is not what you said. If you test > Trango 5830 that is a 18db antenna, and you must also use a 18db antenna > with the MT, for a fair comparison, which the 5830 ext can accommodate. > > To be clear, there was never an attempt to discredit MT or Butch's fine > engineering. Simply that your math wasn't adding up, when you were > reporting > results you got with Trango. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:42 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is JAB when we need them > > > >>>I have a problem with your FUD misrepresenting facts. > > > > *What facts am I misrepresenting?* > > > >>>They are not even close to accurate. You can't fairly compare apples to > > oranges either. > > > > *Did you not just state my information was factual? How can facts not be > > accurate? How could you possibly argue this? What in the world could > > possibly give you the right or capability to call me a liar? I also have > > to > > ask what are apples and oranges as I believe I am comparing two 5.8 point > > to > > multipoint products.* > > > >>>Trango CPEs are $250-$300 per CPE > > > > *Where are you getting this price? Here is what I am looking at: > > > http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU > > > http://www.google.com/products?q=trango+m5830s&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title > > * > > > >>>Trango is 22db consistent, and Mikrotik is LUCKY to get their > > stated full 23db of a Atheros HP card in LOW modulations (not capable of > > 26mbps), and I've rarely seen it actually deliver it consistently, after > > all > > the various potential places for loss (UFl, pigtail, out of spec cards, > > lower grade filtering, etc). If your Mikrotiks are getting higher RSSI, > > then you are illegallly over powering your Mikrotiks. > > > > *I didn't do much of the wireless configuration - Butch made a template > > for > > me. I have a really hard time believing that the cause of the > > disagreement > > here is "illegally over powering [my] Mikrotiks".* > > > >>> You can't compare Trango's oldest product line to MIkrotik's newest. > If > > you > > are concerned about price you shouldn't be buying 5830s. There is a > reason > > that they made the FOX. > > > > *I deployed around a dozen FOX units. The last set were used to replace > > the > > first set that had gone bad. **In the last year only one remains not > > defective. **This one loses association at least once throughout the > month > > and will be replaced if the customer complains about it.* > > > >>>I'd agree with this. But from looking at his post, it looked more like > > he was telling his own experience. Certainly he knows more about his > > own experience than you. Perhaps he is misreading the data, but that's > > not the assumption it looks like you are making. > > > > * Everything I have stated is based on facts. Key word being > > "experience". > > My purpose of my post was to report my success story and my past > > experiences.* > > > > Josh Luthman > > Office: 937-552-2340 > > Direct: 937-552-2343 > > 1100 Wayne St > > Suite 1337 > > Troy, OH 45373 > > > > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. > > --- Henry Spencer > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 21:35 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote: > >> > >> > I don't have a problem with you finding a reason or jsutification to > >> > use > >> > Mikrotik. Mikrotik has a powerful unique product to save WISPs money. > >> > However, I have a problem with your FUD misrepresenting facts. They > are > >> not > >> > even close to accurate. You can't fairly compare apples to oranges > >> either. > >> > >> Which is the apple and which the orange. > >> > >> > Trango CPEs are $250-$300 per CPE and go for 12 miles, and never once > >> > in > >> my > >> > life had a Trango with a RSSI as low as -87. Under no shape or form > >> > will > >> a > >> > Mikrotik ever get a higher RSSI than a DSSS Trango radio of > equivellent > >> > >> This is not necessarily true, either. The truth is that it depends on > >> MANY factors. The radio itself is one of them. Mikrotik is not a > >> "CPE", but an operating system (hence the name "RouterOS"). Just > >> because you have not seen the lower RSSI values doesn't mean that it > >> doesn't happen. > >> > >> > Mikrotik is LUCKY to get their stated full 23db of a Atheros HP card > in > >> > LOW modulations (not capable of 26mbps), and I've rarely seen it > >> > actually > >> > deliver it consistently, after all the various potential places for > >> > loss > >> > (UFl, pigtail, out of spec cards, lower grade filtering, etc). > >> > >> Hmm. Looks like you NAILED it! Using a superior operating system with > >> quality components (good radio card and quality antennas/pigtails) CAN > >> work as well as Trango or any other product on the market. > >> > >> > If your Mikrotiks are getting higher RSSI, then you are illegallly > >> > over powering your Mikrotiks. > >> > >> This is a really broad statement and unfair accusation. You have no > >> real idea if he is doing that or not. I don't know if he is or isn't, > >> but the point is that neither do you. > >> > >> > You can't compare Trango's oldest product line to MIkrotik's newest. > >> > If > >> you > >> > are concerned about price you shouldn't be buying 5830s. There is a > >> reason > >> > that they made the FOX. You need to select the right product and buy > >> savy > >> > for Trango, just like you do for Mikrotik. You will also find that > >> > Mikrotik doesn't do anywhere near 26mbps consistent throughput in a > >> > scaled PtMP environment, expecially with the slightest amount of > noise, > >> > after combating all the congestion issues of a Wifi protocol (no > >> > Nstreme polling does not perform as well as Trango polling). > >> > >> First, you are missing several realities of how MT works. Mikrotik's > >> Nstreme is MUCH more than just polling. Nstreme offers 3 specific > >> benefits, one of which is configurable for specific types of network > >> traffic while the other 2 are simply a "switch". With Nstreme you now > >> have the option to turn off CSMA. This fixes a LOT of the problem that > >> outdoor wifi had in the first place. Then, you have polling. The > >> polling mechanism has gotten a LOT of work recently. Versions after > >> 3.15 (currently only in the test package) have a MUCH better polling > >> mechanism and can scale very well. Perhaps not the the hundreds that a > >> Canopy system can do, but then you don't need it to do that since you > >> can build out more APs for the same $$. Finally, you have the other > >> MAIN benefit of Nstreme, which is the packet aggregation feature. This > >> feature is where the real benefit to Nstreme resides. You and I both > >> know that typical IP traffic for most users is not even CLOSE to the > >> 1500 byte MTU of Ethernet. The average packet size is MUCH smaller. > >> Let's just say it's 200 bytes (this will vary a LOT, depending on the > >> network). What the packet aggregation does is put multiple IP packets > >> inside a single protocol frame. The policy that is used to determine if > >> an IP packet goes into a frame that is being sent is configurable with 4 > >> options. I won't go into detail on those options, as they are > >> documented and you can go read about them. This aggregation technique > >> can reduce the wireless network's overhead (thereby increasing timeslots > >> available for real data) and can make a significant improvement in > >> network throughput. It was back in 2004 that I upgraded a single point > >> to point link and was amazed at the increase. This was a link that was > >> running about 12Mbit throughput before Nstreme and simply turning > >> Nstreme on for that link, it jumped to 18Mbit! That's a 50% increase > >> (or 33, depending on how you calculate it). And that was WAY before the > >> recent improvements in the protocol. The point here is this: You are > >> comparing MT's polling to Trango's polling and the real benefit to MT's > >> Nstreme isn't even in the polling mechanism. > >> > >> > There are many WISPs migrating to Mikrotik for some areas and > >> applications. > >> > But lets keep it real. Mikrotik has plenty of value, it is not > >> > necessary > >> to > >> > distort Trango's capability. > >> > >> I'd agree with this. But from looking at his post, it looked more like > >> he was telling his own experience. Certainly he knows more about his > >> own experience than you. Perhaps he is misreading the data, but that's > >> not the assumption it looks like you are making. > >> > >> -- > >> ******************************************************************** > >> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* > >> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * > >> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * > >> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * > >> ******************************************************************** > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >> > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG. > > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1837 - Release Date: > 12/8/2008 > > 9:38 AM > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
