Yes, 5830 AP is the latest AP. But FOX 5580 and 5800 are the latest CPE versions. Its the sub $300 CPE.
5830 as a CPE was designed to be a Top Quality CPE of its time, and was competiive proced for CPEs of that time. It was kept for those WISPs that demanded teh high quality design CPE. But that was ages ago, and tiems change. To reach competive pricing for current day, they designed the Fox line which is a 1/3 the price, and supports larger antenna sizes. It was the product designed to stack up to MTs When you are talking about 5830SU-ext, you are absolutely correct, that model is NOT cost compettive to the Mikrotik. But you need to consider all teh facts. That 5830, was design to house a Dual pol antenna, it has heatsinks embedded into the case, it has passthrough tat are easy to accommodate your cable in a secure way, they have expensive filters bulit into the MB, they have thick Metal for high F/B ratios for theere antenna sizes. And it was designed to be cosmetically pleasing for installs. It wasn;t designed to be inexpensive. I find it very hard to justifying to buy 5830 new today. We'll only do it, if we know we need a high end PTP antenna such as a Pac Wireless 28dbi. The 5580 outperforms the 5830 today. However, to keep it apples to apples, you must add the $40 Behive antenna (which adds over 10db to the antenna) for a total of 18db antenna gain equivellent to the 5830, or you use it with the dish ($50) for 25db. The Atlas/Fox lines are all sub $300. (including antennas if you buy right, although list price is more) . Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is JAB when we need them >I am using 5830 products - is this not the latest point to multipoint > product Trango has to offer (in the 5.8 band)? > >>>The only possible reasons you could get that spread was if you were not > comparing equivellent > anntennas or doing something wrong, or had a bad batch of radios, or > something, but it was not inline with the capabilty of the product. > > *Using 5830AP and 5830S SU (non-ext), to my knowledge you're stuck with > the > panel for the AP but the SU you can use an external antenna but for a mere > 7mi that didn't seem worth it. I believe there were 2 radios on that > customer's grain bin before the MT AP was up, but I could be wrong. It > was > installed years before my time.* > >>>You can;t jsut ignore that Trango offers a 24dbi antenna (Fox) stock for > its > under $350 price tag. Thats part of it's value proposition. You could > argue > that you don;t like Dishes, but that is not what you said. If you test > Trango 5830 that is a 18db antenna, and you must also use a 18db antenna > with the MT, for a fair comparison, which the 5830 ext can accommodate. > > *I can see the arguement of the stock 18db antenna versus 23db MT antenna, > however I've yet to see where I can get a 5830S-EXT for anything less then > $500 (I'm only seeing the Trango website's price). Keep in mind the MT > setup I am using is $220. Can you tell me where to find these Fox units > for > $350? I am also interested in knowing if anyone has had good success with > the Fox product line as I certainly have not. I have only seen three or > four of them on a tower way north of where our network lives, unsure of > their purpose.* > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. > --- Henry Spencer > > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:00 AM, Tom DeReggi > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > >> Josh, >> >> I did not mean to be disrespectful in my comments, but some of the >> information that you posted was not factual, and was misleading. >> >> You compared the older and most expesnive trango (because itwas old >> technology) with the Newest less expensive Mikrotik. >> That is not apples to apples. t minimum you should be comparingthe latest >> generation of each product line. >> It was sorta like me saying, all Alvarions are expensive because they >> have >> $1500 CPEs (which they do), without disclosing the fact that Alvarion >> also >> has a $350 CPE (which they do)designed to compete for WISP's business. >> >> Second, the RSSI levels that you represented were impossible if you were >> doing apples to apples comparison. Trango and MT have mPCI cards that >> transmit at just about the same TX power. (Trango 22db). The only >> possible >> reasons you could get that spread was if you were not comparing >> equivellent >> anntennas or doing something wrong, or had a bad batch of radios, or >> something, but it was not inline with the capabilty of the product. You >> can;t jsut ignore that Trango offers a 24dbi antenna (Fox) stock for its >> under $350 price tag. Thats part of it's value proposition. You could >> argue >> that you don;t like Dishes, but that is not what you said. If you test >> Trango 5830 that is a 18db antenna, and you must also use a 18db antenna >> with the MT, for a fair comparison, which the 5830 ext can accommodate. >> >> To be clear, there was never an attempt to discredit MT or Butch's fine >> engineering. Simply that your math wasn't adding up, when you were >> reporting >> results you got with Trango. >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is JAB when we need them >> >> >> >>>I have a problem with your FUD misrepresenting facts. >> > >> > *What facts am I misrepresenting?* >> > >> >>>They are not even close to accurate. You can't fairly compare apples >> >>>to >> > oranges either. >> > >> > *Did you not just state my information was factual? How can facts not >> > be >> > accurate? How could you possibly argue this? What in the world could >> > possibly give you the right or capability to call me a liar? I also >> > have >> > to >> > ask what are apples and oranges as I believe I am comparing two 5.8 >> > point >> > to >> > multipoint products.* >> > >> >>>Trango CPEs are $250-$300 per CPE >> > >> > *Where are you getting this price? Here is what I am looking at: >> > >> http://www.trangobroadband.com/store/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=M5830S-SU >> > >> http://www.google.com/products?q=trango+m5830s&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title >> > * >> > >> >>>Trango is 22db consistent, and Mikrotik is LUCKY to get their >> > stated full 23db of a Atheros HP card in LOW modulations (not capable >> > of >> > 26mbps), and I've rarely seen it actually deliver it consistently, >> > after >> > all >> > the various potential places for loss (UFl, pigtail, out of spec cards, >> > lower grade filtering, etc). If your Mikrotiks are getting higher >> > RSSI, >> > then you are illegallly over powering your Mikrotiks. >> > >> > *I didn't do much of the wireless configuration - Butch made a template >> > for >> > me. I have a really hard time believing that the cause of the >> > disagreement >> > here is "illegally over powering [my] Mikrotiks".* >> > >> >>> You can't compare Trango's oldest product line to MIkrotik's newest. >> If >> > you >> > are concerned about price you shouldn't be buying 5830s. There is a >> reason >> > that they made the FOX. >> > >> > *I deployed around a dozen FOX units. The last set were used to >> > replace >> > the >> > first set that had gone bad. **In the last year only one remains not >> > defective. **This one loses association at least once throughout the >> month >> > and will be replaced if the customer complains about it.* >> > >> >>>I'd agree with this. But from looking at his post, it looked more >> >>>like >> > he was telling his own experience. Certainly he knows more about his >> > own experience than you. Perhaps he is misreading the data, but that's >> > not the assumption it looks like you are making. >> > >> > * Everything I have stated is based on facts. Key word being >> > "experience". >> > My purpose of my post was to report my success story and my past >> > experiences.* >> > >> > Josh Luthman >> > Office: 937-552-2340 >> > Direct: 937-552-2343 >> > 1100 Wayne St >> > Suite 1337 >> > Troy, OH 45373 >> > >> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. >> > --- Henry Spencer >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:21 PM, Butch Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 21:35 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote: >> >> >> >> > I don't have a problem with you finding a reason or jsutification to >> >> > use >> >> > Mikrotik. Mikrotik has a powerful unique product to save WISPs >> >> > money. >> >> > However, I have a problem with your FUD misrepresenting facts. They >> are >> >> not >> >> > even close to accurate. You can't fairly compare apples to oranges >> >> either. >> >> >> >> Which is the apple and which the orange. >> >> >> >> > Trango CPEs are $250-$300 per CPE and go for 12 miles, and never >> >> > once >> >> > in >> >> my >> >> > life had a Trango with a RSSI as low as -87. Under no shape or form >> >> > will >> >> a >> >> > Mikrotik ever get a higher RSSI than a DSSS Trango radio of >> equivellent >> >> >> >> This is not necessarily true, either. The truth is that it depends on >> >> MANY factors. The radio itself is one of them. Mikrotik is not a >> >> "CPE", but an operating system (hence the name "RouterOS"). Just >> >> because you have not seen the lower RSSI values doesn't mean that it >> >> doesn't happen. >> >> >> >> > Mikrotik is LUCKY to get their stated full 23db of a Atheros HP card >> in >> >> > LOW modulations (not capable of 26mbps), and I've rarely seen it >> >> > actually >> >> > deliver it consistently, after all the various potential places for >> >> > loss >> >> > (UFl, pigtail, out of spec cards, lower grade filtering, etc). >> >> >> >> Hmm. Looks like you NAILED it! Using a superior operating system >> >> with >> >> quality components (good radio card and quality antennas/pigtails) CAN >> >> work as well as Trango or any other product on the market. >> >> >> >> > If your Mikrotiks are getting higher RSSI, then you are illegallly >> >> > over powering your Mikrotiks. >> >> >> >> This is a really broad statement and unfair accusation. You have no >> >> real idea if he is doing that or not. I don't know if he is or isn't, >> >> but the point is that neither do you. >> >> >> >> > You can't compare Trango's oldest product line to MIkrotik's newest. >> >> > If >> >> you >> >> > are concerned about price you shouldn't be buying 5830s. There is a >> >> reason >> >> > that they made the FOX. You need to select the right product and >> >> > buy >> >> savy >> >> > for Trango, just like you do for Mikrotik. You will also find that >> >> > Mikrotik doesn't do anywhere near 26mbps consistent throughput in a >> >> > scaled PtMP environment, expecially with the slightest amount of >> noise, >> >> > after combating all the congestion issues of a Wifi protocol (no >> >> > Nstreme polling does not perform as well as Trango polling). >> >> >> >> First, you are missing several realities of how MT works. Mikrotik's >> >> Nstreme is MUCH more than just polling. Nstreme offers 3 specific >> >> benefits, one of which is configurable for specific types of network >> >> traffic while the other 2 are simply a "switch". With Nstreme you now >> >> have the option to turn off CSMA. This fixes a LOT of the problem >> >> that >> >> outdoor wifi had in the first place. Then, you have polling. The >> >> polling mechanism has gotten a LOT of work recently. Versions after >> >> 3.15 (currently only in the test package) have a MUCH better polling >> >> mechanism and can scale very well. Perhaps not the the hundreds that >> >> a >> >> Canopy system can do, but then you don't need it to do that since you >> >> can build out more APs for the same $$. Finally, you have the other >> >> MAIN benefit of Nstreme, which is the packet aggregation feature. >> >> This >> >> feature is where the real benefit to Nstreme resides. You and I both >> >> know that typical IP traffic for most users is not even CLOSE to the >> >> 1500 byte MTU of Ethernet. The average packet size is MUCH smaller. >> >> Let's just say it's 200 bytes (this will vary a LOT, depending on the >> >> network). What the packet aggregation does is put multiple IP packets >> >> inside a single protocol frame. The policy that is used to determine >> >> if >> >> an IP packet goes into a frame that is being sent is configurable with >> >> 4 >> >> options. I won't go into detail on those options, as they are >> >> documented and you can go read about them. This aggregation technique >> >> can reduce the wireless network's overhead (thereby increasing >> >> timeslots >> >> available for real data) and can make a significant improvement in >> >> network throughput. It was back in 2004 that I upgraded a single >> >> point >> >> to point link and was amazed at the increase. This was a link that >> >> was >> >> running about 12Mbit throughput before Nstreme and simply turning >> >> Nstreme on for that link, it jumped to 18Mbit! That's a 50% increase >> >> (or 33, depending on how you calculate it). And that was WAY before >> >> the >> >> recent improvements in the protocol. The point here is this: You are >> >> comparing MT's polling to Trango's polling and the real benefit to >> >> MT's >> >> Nstreme isn't even in the polling mechanism. >> >> >> >> > There are many WISPs migrating to Mikrotik for some areas and >> >> applications. >> >> > But lets keep it real. Mikrotik has plenty of value, it is not >> >> > necessary >> >> to >> >> > distort Trango's capability. >> >> >> >> I'd agree with this. But from looking at his post, it looked more >> >> like >> >> he was telling his own experience. Certainly he knows more about his >> >> own experience than you. Perhaps he is misreading the data, but >> >> that's >> >> not the assumption it looks like you are making. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ******************************************************************** >> >> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* >> >> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering * >> >> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * >> >> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * >> >> ******************************************************************** >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> WISPA Wants You! 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