Cde, Seems you haven't got my point right comrade....the problem might lie in the fact that you might be more exposed to judgemental christianity that really doesn't seek to achieve what christianity seeks to achieve...firstly you invited us to a discussion about how capitalism has transformed the church to its favour...well I vehemently agree with you in that regard...actually, in all socio-economic formations...christianity has been used by the rural class of that particular society....now my point is that...if we can understand the psychological make-up or if we can approach the causes of that from an axiological perspective...we can begin to understand whwere the church is, and what it seeks to achieve....
My point is...to view christianity on the bases of it being hijacked by the ruling class as an oppressive religion or as an opium to the mind is essentially FALLACY OF COMPOSITION...its like saying neusea is caused by rain on the bases of co-incidence of my being seekk with neusea on a rainy day...whilst in actual fact,I ate something with a bug... The church is an organ of civil society that is a contested terrain by all classes...and as such..it should be harnessed by the working class...and put in its proper pespective...it doesn't even need a working class ideology...because...IT IS ESSENTIALLY PRO-POOR.... Regards Xoli Dlabantu On 2/12/10, Sithembewena tsembeyi <[email protected]> wrote: > well as seem as seem as you may allude dear xoli that you were invited in > the ranks at the age of 17, well for me i am born of the womb of > revolutionary acceptions well that you may ot have felling of, but clearly > your continuos illution that christian are humen more than ud can be a > subjective issue well the party of marks and lenin seeks all those to be > thee advanced and most resolute well you have confessed that you are non of > the above well my point is that we as young as we are (by the way i am only > 27) should at all times seek to be the 1st in advancing the true nature of > our struggle for socialism which in rhis case you are desmally faling to > advance as a self aclaimwd phsydo_communist we all need to consider our role > as revolutionaries will attend to you more clear soon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: Re: FW: Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN > Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:11:16 > From: Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > > Cde, > Awu..advanced comrade...."pride comes before a fall"...but you are advanced > in your owned world I can see...look comrade we've long been in this > thing...and we know all the tendencies and we are familiar with all > responses...actually...I was INVITED TO THE PARTY IN THE UNDERGROUND > STRUCTURES WHEN I WAS 17 YEARS OF AGE...and I've outlived my time as the > member of the Young Communist League....I was a Commissar at the MK camps > but I'M FAR FROM BEING ADVANCED...actually...I haven't seen anyone advanced > these days....well those days you would have Barney Molokoane who would > really take the struggle as his own thing...to a point of sacrificing his > own life...well that was ADVANCED...you can't be seating on your laurels > chatting the revolution..and out of all revolutions the south African > HIJACKED REVOLUTION AND CLAIM THAT YOU ARE ADVANCED....I think that's > chalatancy in its most simple (not advanced form). > > > Now on the issue of dehumanisation, I really can't see any struggle by the > oppressed, against the oppresser with a view to save the same oppressor from > his state of oppressing being branded dehumanising...the socialist > revolution, from an axiological perspective is inherently human if judged by > its desired outcomes...anyway let me hear what you've got to say... > > > And please you are not the only prospective communist around...you might > find out everyone around you is...except you.... > > Xoli Dlabantu > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Sithembewena tsembeyi < > [email protected] > wrote: > my intensions was not to respond as i have stated of my limitations, and > till i have much more comfort space to clearify you chief, but however as > earliar said A Is not equals to A, Dehuminisation my be not reactionary as u > may substintiate it to be what if the whole society tusk to emanicipate > believes with no gownd that christianity of a special type is equal to > humanity, wont it be our revolutionary tusk to dehumanise them from the > percerption, and further i have reminded you of the dialectics of nature in > referal to humanity, its scietific clear that mankind is the opposite of > humenkind well in tym i will take responcibility in clearifiying all the > said sad that coz of my position as an advanced and most resolute section of > the working class i should be at the ground trying to do what a lot is > fantasising to do weging the class struggle thanx to the barry i can still > keep in touch with some of self aclaimed anacho-philosophists no offence > talk is > cheap > > ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] > DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:22:05 From: Xoli Dlabantu < > [email protected] > > To: < [email protected] > yeah agreed....in fact tyrants > even paint crosses in their tanks to justify their gruesome acts in > battlefields....evryone would like God to be on his side...but that doesn't > mean God is on their side....Put it in another way...it doesn't mean that > when you are doing bad in the name of good you are good...christianity > expounds goodness...but even to-date when capitalist want to attack > socialism...they sometimes use the church...why...BECAUSE THE CHURCH IS A > SYMBOL OF GOODNESS...AND EVERYONE WANTS TO JUSTIFY HE'S ACTIONS AS BEING > GOOD HENCE THE USE OF THE CHURCH...but if you can begin to view the mission > of that profound institution..you'll find that it remains what it is....a > vital organ in the struggle between humanisation and dehumanisation...it is > a contested terrain...an organ in the civil society that has to be > occupied...leaders come and go...but the church remains...and seemingly...it > will be around for a > very long time...now the point is instead > of attacking the church...which many socialists have done...why don't we > attack the real oppressors...the capitalists...the BIBLE says,"a camel would > enter in a needle's eye if a rich man would enter HEAVEN"....so is there > nothing familiar in that statement....because its the enemies of God who > will never see HEAVEN according to the bible....therefore are capitalists > not the enemies of God?...seems they are..according to the Bible... > Xoli Dlabantu On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Sithembewena > tsembeyi < [email protected] > wrote: dear cde xoli let me first > acknowledge that i have been following your latest contributions on this > blog, i would have liked to contribute on this discussion but however since > my gadget limits me i will breifly pose few questions on you so called > sympathetic dilussions on christianity, in as much dominatory it maybe and > it being a fect that it is an opiam of mind, wasnt it the same lame > chrestianitt used by forces of imperialisim to humble and antivate society > and the working class as to such they believe socialism and communism is > evil, is it not the same compliment of dilution used by forces of neo > liberalism to unsettle and further divided us shoren on class diffirences, > culture, race and nationality well i will at the write time further engage > an seek to clearify you on this matter of fussional religion as an urgent of > divission > that seek not only to defeat the class struggle but also give rethorical > anocho-syndicalist theraphy to our society by > saying only god knows, till then myfreind await my responce ----- Original > Message ----- Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN Date: > Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:09:30 From: Xoli Dlabantu < [email protected] > > To: < [email protected] > Cdes, I've long wanted to open a > debate around religion, but the problem would be the angle I want to open > it...From the church being an organ > on civil society that has been profaned by crass materialism or the > existence of God... Ok, allow me first to engage on the latter one and > conclude with the former. 1. First, for one to utter such as words as the > non-existence of God, > or His existance one should be informed by the background against which such > pronouncements were uttered. We need to first understand that it is > characteristic of any social > revolution..(communal-slavery...slavery-fuedalism...feudalism-capitalism....imperialism-socialism) > in the process of negation of that socio-economic formation to destroy the > inherent ideology that seeks to justify that particular existing oppressive > socio-economic formation. EVERYTHING IS BROUGHT BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF > REASON...It therefore becomes natural to > question religion, if it will seek to justify the existence of reactionary > phenomena... It was unfortunate for religion that in his thesis on > dialectics of nature, Hegel to mingle his philosophical outlook with > religion and > Christianity in particular, to create an impression of his philosophy was > religion, which is not philosophy in the practical sense of the > word...Theology has philosophy, and in fact uses the same dialectics as well > as other phiosophies like Posivitism and others...Well, in the > process of the development of Marxism, Marx was exposed to the German > philosophy which concentrated solely on two schools of thought namely: a) > Dialectics by Hegel, as well as b) Metaphysics by Feurburgh. Now the > development of Materialist Dialectics as a world outlook was influenced > solely by these two philosophical outlooks, and notably, their development > was quite close and heated, if not emotional....when they developed, Hegel's > main abstract was that, "THE EXISTING IS > RATIONAL"..THERE'S AN INTERCONNECTION IN THE EXISTENCE OF PHENOMENA.. and > when translating that to the socio-economic challenges of the then being > industrialised Germany...it meant..WORKERS HAD TO LITERALLY WORK > 23 HOURS AND GET PAID MONEY TO EAT AND GET CLOTHED...AND THAT WAS ALL THEY > WERE ENTITLED TO as compensation... and the Hegelian philosophy justified > that....BECAUSE THE EXISTING as Hegel said...IS RATIONAL...Now that was and > it still is a problem...Now Feurburgh came > a diametricaly and a mutual exclusive view, which was quite mechanical in > response to say, 'NO...THE EXISTING IS NOT RETIONAL...THERE'S NO > INTERCONNECTION OF PHENOMENA...and he began to relate his pronouncements to > what was happen in the economic setup of > Germany...Now Karl Marx and Engels then..who grew up in Germany and were > seeking to find practical as well as philosophical justification of those > solutions, as part of the development of a body of knowledge had to > synthesise those two phenomena to say...NO...WAIT YOU ARE BOTH > RIGHT AND YET WRONG...IN THAT: a) Yes there is interconnection of > phenomena.. b) dialectics and materialism at an optimal level are both > right...but c) the matter is the SUBJECT... d) the idea is the predicate... > e) he went on to say that there is nothing like a supernatural being who > happens to have solutions to all our nature's problem... on that basis, he > went on to draft historical materialism( which was influenced by the > scientific discoveries of Charles Darwin) > Now in this regard I would like to make an intervention...to say: a) from > an axiological point of view, human kind is always faced with two > challenges...humanisation and dehumanisation...in its pursuit to its > completion..(for we are not complete without having, as men and > women) b) the vocation of humans is humanisation...as against > dehumanisation... c) dehumanisation usually negates humanisation only to > affirm that as time goes by... c) religion is a tool in this primary human > vocation... > In trying to answer on the existence of God (or not) I would say, Marxism > as a doctrine is not yet complete...for as long as science is not > complete...for an example....in 1892...Engels negates Marx's view that > "...the value of a commodity is equal to the value of social necessary > labour time spent on its production ( which in actual fact was Adam Smith)", > to say that " the value of production is equal to > the cost of production...', now that points to what Marx himself said when > asked "What is your main dictum". He said,""De omnibus est dubitandum" ("You > have to doubt everything").the one which is so often > stupidly and foolishly attributed to Marx, that he was building a new > religion without God. The greatest scientist of all times, Albert Einstein, > who was there after Marx was, quited Christianity because he said, " God was > so awesome and so great for him to be worshiped the > way christians did. Now, that was a man of celestial insights about the > existence of Phenomena...anyway...what do you make of the fact tha > Einstein's discoveries are the exact opposite of what Newton said, whilst > both are practicable..so which one is the truth...can we on > that basis therefore attribute our existence..on the basis of conflicting > and yet very practicable phenomena... The point I'm trying to make is: i) it > quite normal in a social revolution to put everything before the > judgement seat of reason...and it will justify evil or dehumanising > practises at its own peril..let me make one little example on this one: THE > SACP WILL OPPOSE NATIONALISATIO AT ITS OWN PERIL....now I think we can > relate well to that... the problem with the church all the past > socio-economic formations is that it has allowed itself to be in the mercies > of the ruling class which has eventually cloaked it with its dark > hegemony... > The problem with the socialists on the other hand is that they have sought > to automatically aligned it with the ruling class instead of contesting for > its terrain as a vital organ of the civil society... Lastly, I've > disccovered my religion christianity as a very fulfilling > way of life for me...light where there's darkness...hope where there's > hopelessness...for my family, it meant more love from me....for my community > more closeness with me...than in the past when I had to treat everyone with > suspiscion of being spies for whoever.... and I think I understand why > Daniel Ortega...the now President of Nicaragua had to be a born again > christian whilst being a Socialist...and a President of a country out of all > socialists.... > Moreover, I don't really forsee in my right frame of mind...a 90% christian > nation being turned into atheists...because their persieved route happens to > be a socialist route...Christianity has survived the test of all times and > it has never failed..... On the question of Scientific basis of > discovery...I wish to mention that reality is that which exists outside our > consciousness...and it doesn't go woth scientific discovery...rather it is > science that seeks > to discover phenomena...outside its control....those two are > separate...therefore the existence of the spiritual realm won't be created > by science...but will be discovered...like America...being discovered by > Christopher...whilst it had its own indegenous > inhabitats... Therefore mna...I don't attest to the view that the religion > speaks of non-existant things... I don't want to get into my own very > practical experiences with Christianity....not for this forum...but comrade > and friend...I've > seen spiritual wonders with my material eyes.... Anyway, I ascribe to the > ideas of Marx in as far as the theory of socialism as well as Political > Economy..though the latter has to be revised.... Comradely regards Xoli > Dlabantu On 2/12/10, howard matjomane < [email protected] > > wrote: > My fellow Leader, > The problem with your article is critique > without solution and infact you >> completely missed the point by mentioning the churches in their names >> which > to many might regard that as an attacked on their institutions >> resulting in > creating the historical perception that the communist is >> evil.At level of >> your leadership i will assume you have knowledge and understanding of the >> > mass and how difficult is to change one culture.While you have got the >> point > Comrade General you should have try to balance your article so >> that the >> readers can decide themselves instead of deciding for millions of >> christians > that their bishops are stealing their money. > You should >> also have to take in account that you cannot change the attitude > of >> christians by mere writing of articles under the current conditions > >> where propaganda machines and American cultural formations are well > >> established accross the globe. > > We must understand comrades that >> majority of this christians are >> experiencing an extended poverty and the capital accumulation and self > >> enrichment is only on the upper layer consisting of bishops and his/her >> yes > MEN and WOMEN.Ours is to redirect the current christians problems >> and merge >> into our struggle.Ours comrade is to have the mass on our side to >> intensify > our sttruggle for socialism and finally communism. > > We may >> know that God does not exist on the bases of scientific evidence,We >> may know that there is nothing like ancestors and we may know that bible >> is > document to delay the struggle for better life and is full of man >> made > lies.All of the above cannot be understood by ordinary peasants >> and workers >> and I can assusre comrade should you continue with that you will loose the >> > most important support and you will infact be delaying our road to > >> socialism. > > In short it is important that when we provide political >> education we must >> strtegically concentrate on the curent community problems and how YCL can >> > help the communities to overcome poverty instead of concentrating on >> things > that young and uneducated comrade from Ga-Moloi cannot >> understand. >> > > TamaKgoši, > > Howard > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:36 AM, patrick >> > > Mbatha > < [email protected] >wrote: > >> COMDRADE MAVIYO >> > > NDINISA youare raising a very sensetive issue and I agree >> with you >> > > however I feel that this is an attack to christianity not >> religion >> > > >> in general. >> >>> >> On 2/11/10, Ndinisa Maviyo < [email protected] > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> Let us engage on this discussion,enrich it. >>> >>> -- >>> You are >>> >> subscribed. 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