Christianity: When the Holy Roman Empire had too much problems with the early Christians in one of its remote colonies, namely Judea; the HRE simply legalised it; but under a structure of it's own and called it the Roman Catholic Church.
Eversince, modernity cause the RCC to splinter into a myriad of smaller.... good for nothings! Particularly in the Third and Developing countries another kind of Christianity came into being that is much more supportive of the poor and downtrodden in societies/-y. That kind of Christianity is called Liberation Theology. Fri at 12:14am On 2/15/10, Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> wrote: > Cde, In america....Martin Luther King the junior was a priest an a > human rights activist...he never said that black americans should > disregard their their material conditions and wait for another world > to come....on the other hand, Malcolm X was a gallant moslem activist > who sought to fight for against oppression "by all means > necessary"...now I think we might be missing some issues > here...perhaps you need to understand what the word "communism" means > or what real "communists are"...communism as it was founed then was > not a society of "atheists"...it was a society which sought to > transform society to the medieval form of "communalism" at a higher > level...where there will be no classes to oppress each other...well if > you were told that the communist party was a party of atheists...you > wee misinformed...and that is the main contributer to the RED SCARE > that is dominant in our society...people are afraid of these GODLESS > ATHEISTS CALLED COMMUNISTS who are here to introduce FOREIGN IF NOT > RUSSIAN IDEOLODGIES THAT WILL DETROY OUR MORAL FIBRE....thats what > ordinary people are thinking out there...even within the trade union > movement...you'lll find people who can't joint the party because of > unnecessary atheist pronouncements within the party....so LETS SET OUR > PRIORITIES STRAIGHT....I reiterate this point: > MARXISM IS NOT A CLOSED AND COMPLETE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE....IT STILL HAS > TO BE DEVELOPED....ACTUALLY I'M IN THE PROCESS OF NEGATING SOME OF > MARX'S PRONOUNCEMENTS INCLUDING THE THEORY OF VALUE..the reason for me > doing that is that it is necessary and MARXISM..is not omnipotent as > LENIN believed it was...ITS THE UNIVERSAL ACCUMULATION OF KNOWLEDGE > SUBJECT TO NEGATION AND RE-AFFRMATION OF PHENOMENA.... > > Regards > Xoli > > On 2/13/10, Jeje Yaqub <[email protected]> wrote: >> Maqabane, >> >> What a disgrace and sheer betrayal to Marxism-Leninism. It seems to me >> that >> the party has wasted its resources in trying to develop the consciousness >> of >> both uXoli and Sithembewena. It has never crossed my mind that one day >> cdes >> will engage on petty issues instead of assisting our cause in the battle >> of >> ideas. Bragging and boasting about your struggle credentials is not in >> the >> interest of the working class,but a sign that you cdes have got no >> conscience (unembeza).When Marx said religion is the opium of the mind, i >> found it difficult to understand but as i'm observing your dialogue, it >> the >> becomes clear what Marx meant in his statement.You two are also a >> clear definition of the saying that not all members of the party are >> communist.In anycase, i think you two do not understand a thing >> about religion hence your dialogue is degenerating to a contest of >> struggle >> credentials, so stop engaging on things that you have no knowledge of. >> Cde >> Xoli, i wonder >> what mechanism was applied to identify you as one worthy of being a >> party >> member at that time.I also wonder what type of a commissar were you, in >> any >> case it doesn't matter since errors do happen. Religion teaches people >> not >> to worry about the material conditions of any given society and rather >> focus >> on the life after death,is this what cde Xoli sees as anti capitalist. It >> speaks of an individual liberating the world from sin,is this again a >> symbol >> of goodness? Then let me clarify you cdes,anything said in the bible >> works >> in favour of the bourgoiesie because believing in it makes one more >> docile >> and easier to exploit economically. It says we should not worry about the >> minerals beneath the soil (the riches of the world) but focus on things >> that >> are not scientifically proven (path to heaven) and such is but pure >> idealism. Cde Xoli, if you really do read to understand, you will then >> know >> that the friend of God in the bible (Abraham) was filthy rich >> and yet the scripture assures him entry in Heaven, so what do you say >> about that? You see cdes,there are better issues to engage from a working >> class perspective such as the SOTA. We must not seek recognition from the >> army of imperialism but try to develop their consciousness (i,m reffering >> to >> christians).Believing that the church is good and those using it are bad >> is >> the same as a seeing a differnce between capitalism and the >> capitalists.It >> is the same as saying permanent revolution destroys the nation and also >> takes society backwards.The WIVL keeps on challenging through issues that >> seems to be insulting the Party and Cosatu when in really, that is just >> another way of provoking discussion. If you two cdes have so much energy >> to >> engage around crap,then use it to defend the Party from the consistent >> attacks from WIVL,unless you two confirms the point that reactionaries >> have >> got energy for wrong things. Cde Xoli,take me along on your to Cuba for >> yuor >> prayer there so I can go and contribute in the defence of Cuba against >> the >> consistent onslaught and unjustifiable economic blockades from the >> imperialist US. Che Guevara said a revolutionary should be affected or >> feel >> pain at seeing any injustice caused against any man or nation and in >> regard >> to such you take practically take in the defeat of those injustice (not >> praying). I'm convinced you were not only a commissar at the MK camps but >> also a Priest. >> I know your adrenalins are pumping so high, you will want to engage me >> but >> rest assured,I will not respond to any of your >> unscrupulous,unethical,non-revolutionary and uncommunist responses. >> >> Oh! I nearly forgot, The SACP was supposed to be a party of communists, >> not >> a one size fits all party or multi class party >> >> Hasta la Victoria Siempre, >> >> Avant Garde!!! >> >> Apologiesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 6:11:16 PM >> Subject: Re: FW: Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >> >> >> Cde, >> Awu..advanced comrade...."pride comes before a fall"...but you are >> advanced >> in your owned world I can see...look comrade we've long been in this >> thing...and we know all the tendencies and we are familiar with all >> responses...actually...I was INVITED TO THE PARTY IN THE UNDERGROUND >> STRUCTURES WHEN I WAS 17 YEARS OF AGE...and I've outlived my time as the >> member of the Young Communist League....I was a Commissar at the MK camps >> but I'M FAR FROM BEING ADVANCED...actually...I haven't seen anyone >> advanced >> these days....well those days you would have Barney Molokoane who would >> really take the struggle as his own thing...to a point of sacrificing his >> own life...well that was ADVANCED...you can't be seating on your laurels >> chatting the revolution..and out of all revolutions the south African >> HIJACKED REVOLUTION AND CLAIM THAT YOU ARE ADVANCED....I think that's >> chalatancy in its most simple (not advanced form). >> >> Now on the issue of dehumanisation, I really can't see any struggle by >> the >> oppressed, against the oppresser with a view to save the same oppressor >> from >> his state of oppressing being branded dehumanising...the socialist >> revolution, from an axiological perspective is inherently human if judged >> by >> its desired outcomes...anyway let me hear what you've got to say... >> >> And please you are not the only prospective communist around...you might >> find out everyone around you is...except you.... >> >> Xoli Dlabantu >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Sithembewena tsembeyi >> <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> my intensions was not to respond as i have stated of my limitations, and >> till i have much more comfort space to clearify you chief, but however as >> earliar said A Is not equals to A, Dehuminisation my be not reactionary as >> u >> may substintiate it to be what if the whole society tusk to emanicipate >> believes with no gownd that christianity of a special type is equal to >> humanity, wont it be our revolutionary tusk to dehumanise them from the >> percerption, and further i have reminded you of the dialectics of nature >> in >> referal to humanity, its scietific clear that mankind is the opposite of >> humenkind well in tym i will take responcibility in clearifiying all the >> said sad that coz of my position as an advanced and most resolute section >> of >> the working class i should be at the ground trying to do what a lot is >> fantasising to do weging the class struggle thanx to the barry i can >> still >> keep in touch with some of self aclaimed anacho-philosophists no offence >> talk is >>> cheap >>> >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>Subject: Re: FW: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT FROM HEAVEN >>>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 15:22:05 >>>From: Xoli Dlabantu <[email protected]> >>>To: <[email protected]> >>> >>>yeah agreed....in fact tyrants even paint crosses in their tanks to >>> justify >>> their gruesome acts in battlefields....evryone would like God to be on >>> his >>> side...but that doesn't mean God is on their side....Put it in another >>> way...it doesn't mean that when you are doing bad in the name of good >>> you >>> are good...christianity expounds goodness...but even to-date when >>> capitalist want to attack socialism...they sometimes use the >>> church...why...BECAUSE THE CHURCH IS A SYMBOL OF GOODNESS...AND EVERYONE >>> WANTS TO JUSTIFY HE'S ACTIONS AS BEING GOOD HENCE THE USE OF THE >>> CHURCH...but if you can begin to view the mission of that profound >>> institution..you'll find that it remains what it is....a vital organ in >>> the struggle between humanisation and dehumanisation...it is a contested >>> terrain...an organ in the civil society that has to be >>> occupied...leaders >>> come and go...but the church remains...and seemingly...it will be around >>> for a very long time...now the point is instead >>> of attacking the church...which many socialists have done...why don't we >>> attack the real oppressors...the capitalists...the BIBLE says,"a camel >>> would enter in a needle's eye if a rich man would enter HEAVEN"....so is >>> there nothing familiar in that statement....because its the enemies of >>> God >>> who will never see HEAVEN according to the bible....therefore are >>> capitalists not the enemies of God?...seems they are..according to the >>> Bible... >>> >>> >>> Xoli Dlabantu >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Sithembewena tsembeyi < >>> [email protected] > wrote: >>> dear cde xoli let me first acknowledge that i have been following your >>> latest contributions on this blog, i would have liked to contribute on >>> this discussion but however since my gadget limits me i will breifly >>> pose >>> few questions on you so called sympathetic dilussions on christianity, >>> in >>> as much dominatory it maybe and it being a fect that it is an opiam of >>> mind, wasnt it the same lame chrestianitt used by forces of imperialisim >>> to humble and antivate society and the working class as to such they >>> believe socialism and communism is evil, is it not the same compliment >>> of >>> dilution used by forces of neo liberalism to unsettle and further >>> divided >>> us shoren on class diffirences, culture, race and nationality well i >>> will >>> at the write time further engage an seek to clearify you on this matter >>> of >>> fussional religion as an urgent of divission that seek not only to >>> defeat >>> the class struggle but also give rethorical anocho-syndicalist theraphy >>> to >>> our society by >>> saying only god knows, till then myfreind await my responce >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] DEPLOYMENT >>> FROM HEAVEN Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:09:30 From: Xoli Dlabantu < >>> [email protected] > >>>To: < [email protected] > Cdes, I've long wanted to open >>> a >>> debate around religion, but the problem would be the angle I want to >>> open >>> it...From the church being an organ >>>on civil society that has been profaned by crass materialism or the >>> existence of God... Ok, allow me first to engage on the latter one and >>> conclude with the former. 1. First, for one to utter such as words as >>> the >>> non-existence of God, >>>or His existance one should be informed by the background against which >>> such pronouncements were uttered. We need to first understand that it is >>> characteristic of any social >>> revolution..(communal-slavery...slavery-fuedalism...feudalism-capitalism....imperialism-socialism) >>> in the process of negation of that socio-economic formation to destroy >>> the >>> inherent ideology that seeks to justify that particular existing >>> oppressive socio-economic formation. EVERYTHING IS BROUGHT BEFORE THE >>> JUDGEMENT SEAT OF REASON...It therefore becomes natural to >>>question religion, if it will seek to justify the existence of >>> reactionary >>> phenomena... It was unfortunate for religion that in his thesis on >>> dialectics of nature, Hegel to mingle his philosophical outlook with >>> religion and >>>Christianity in particular, to create an impression of his philosophy was >>> religion, which is not philosophy in the practical sense of the >>> word...Theology has philosophy, and in fact uses the same dialectics as >>> well as other phiosophies like Posivitism and others...Well, in the >>>process of the development of Marxism, Marx was exposed to the German >>> philosophy which concentrated solely on two schools of thought namely: >>> a) >>> Dialectics by Hegel, as well as b) Metaphysics by Feurburgh. >>>Now the development of Materialist Dialectics as a world outlook was >>> influenced solely by these two philosophical outlooks, and notably, >>> their >>> development was quite close and heated, if not emotional....when they >>> developed, Hegel's main abstract was that, "THE EXISTING IS >>>RATIONAL"..THERE'S AN INTERCONNECTION IN THE EXISTENCE OF PHENOMENA.. and >>> when translating that to the socio-economic challenges of the then being >>> industrialised Germany...it meant..WORKERS HAD TO LITERALLY WORK >>>23 HOURS AND GET PAID MONEY TO EAT AND GET CLOTHED...AND THAT WAS ALL >>> THEY >>> WERE ENTITLED TO as compensation... and the Hegelian philosophy >>> justified >>> that....BECAUSE THE EXISTING as Hegel said...IS RATIONAL...Now that was >>> and it still is a problem...Now Feurburgh came >>>a diametricaly and a mutual exclusive view, which was quite mechanical in >>> response to say, 'NO...THE EXISTING IS NOT RETIONAL...THERE'S NO >>> INTERCONNECTION OF PHENOMENA...and he began to relate his pronouncements >>> to what was happen in the economic setup of >>>Germany...Now Karl Marx and Engels then..who grew up in Germany and were >>> seeking to find practical as well as philosophical justification of >>> those >>> solutions, as part of the development of a body of knowledge had to >>> synthesise those two phenomena to say...NO...WAIT YOU ARE BOTH >>>RIGHT AND YET WRONG...IN THAT: a) Yes there is interconnection of >>> phenomena.. b) dialectics and materialism at an optimal level are both >>> right...but c) the matter is the SUBJECT... d) the idea is the >>> predicate... >>>e) he went on to say that there is nothing like a supernatural being who >>> happens to have solutions to all our nature's problem... on that basis, >>> he >>> went on to draft historical materialism( which was influenced by the >>> scientific discoveries of Charles Darwin) >>> Now in this regard I would like to make an intervention...to say: a) >>> from >>> an axiological point of view, human kind is always faced with two >>> challenges...humanisation and dehumanisation...in its pursuit to its >>> completion..(for we are not complete without having, as men and >>>women) b) the vocation of humans is humanisation...as against >>> dehumanisation... c) dehumanisation usually negates humanisation only to >>> affirm that as time goes by... c) religion is a tool in this primary >>> human >>> vocation... >>> In trying to answer on the existence of God (or not) I would say, >>> Marxism >>> as a doctrine is not yet complete...for as long as science is not >>> complete...for an example....in 1892...Engels negates Marx's view >>>that "...the value of a commodity is equal to the value of social >>> necessary >>> labour time spent on its production ( which in actual fact was Adam >>> Smith)", to say that " the value of production is equal to >>>the cost of production...', now that points to what Marx himself said >>> when >>> asked "What is your main dictum". He said,""De omnibus est dubitandum" >>> ("You have to doubt everything").the one which is so often >>>stupidly and foolishly attributed to Marx, that he was building a new >>> religion without God. The greatest scientist of all times, Albert >>> Einstein, who was there after Marx was, quited Christianity because he >>> said, " God was so awesome and so great for him to be worshiped the >>>way christians did. Now, that was a man of celestial insights about the >>> existence of Phenomena...anyway...what do you make of the fact tha >>> Einstein's discoveries are the exact opposite of what Newton said, >>> whilst >>> both are practicable..so which one is the truth...can we on >>>that basis therefore attribute our existence..on the basis of conflicting >>> and yet very practicable phenomena... The point I'm trying to make is: >>> i) >>> it quite normal in a social revolution to put everything before the >>>judgement seat of reason...and it will justify evil or dehumanising >>> practises at its own peril..let me make one little example on this one: >>> THE SACP WILL OPPOSE NATIONALISATIO AT ITS OWN PERIL....now I think we >>>can relate well to that... the problem with the church all the past >>> socio-economic formations is that it has allowed itself to be in the >>> mercies of the ruling class which has eventually cloaked it with its >>> dark >>> hegemony... >>>The problem with the socialists on the other hand is that they have >>> sought >>> to automatically aligned it with the ruling class instead of contesting >>> for its terrain as a vital organ of the civil society... Lastly, I've >>> disccovered my religion christianity as a very fulfilling >>>way of life for me...light where there's darkness...hope where there's >>> hopelessness...for my family, it meant more love from me....for my >>> community more closeness with me...than in the past when I had to >>>treat everyone with suspiscion of being spies for whoever.... and I think >>> I >>> understand why Daniel Ortega...the now President of Nicaragua had to be >>> a >>> born again christian whilst being a Socialist...and a President of a >>> country out of all socialists.... >>> Moreover, I don't really forsee in my right frame of mind...a 90% >>> christian nation being turned into atheists...because their persieved >>> route happens to be a socialist route...Christianity has survived the >>>test of all times and it has never failed..... On the question of >>> Scientific basis of discovery...I wish to mention that reality is that >>> which exists outside our consciousness...and it doesn't go woth >>> scientific >>> discovery...rather it is science that seeks >>>to discover phenomena...outside its control....those two are >>> separate...therefore the existence of the spiritual realm won't be >>> created >>> by science...but will be discovered...like America...being discovered by >>> Christopher...whilst it had its own indegenous >>>inhabitats... Therefore mna...I don't attest to the view that the >>> religion >>> speaks of non-existant things... I don't want to get into my own very >>> practical experiences with Christianity....not for this forum...but >>> comrade and friend...I've >>>seen spiritual wonders with my material eyes.... Anyway, I ascribe to the >>> ideas of Marx in as far as the theory of socialism as well as Political >>> Economy..though the latter has to be revised.... Comradely regards >>>Xoli Dlabantu On 2/12/10, howard matjomane < [email protected] >>> > >>> wrote: > My fellow Leader, > The problem with your article is critique >>> without solution and infact you >>>> completely missed the point by mentioning the churches in their names >>>> which > to many might regard that as an attacked on their institutions >>>> resulting in > creating the historical perception that the communist >>>> is >>>> evil.At level of >>>> your leadership i will assume you have knowledge and understanding of >>>> the >>>> > mass and how difficult is to change one culture.While you have got >>>> > the >>>> point > Comrade General you should have try to balance your article so >>>> that the >>>> readers can decide themselves instead of deciding for millions of >>>> christians > that their bishops are stealing their money. > You should >>>> also have to take in account that you cannot change the attitude >>>> of christians by mere writing of articles under the current conditions >>>> > >>>> where propaganda machines and American cultural formations are well > >>>> established accross the globe. > > We must understand comrades that >>>> majority of this christians are >>>> experiencing an extended poverty and the capital accumulation and self >>>> > >>>> enrichment is only on the upper layer consisting of bishops and his/her >>>> yes > MEN and WOMEN.Ours is to redirect the current christians >>>> problems >>>> and merge >>>> into our struggle.Ours comrade is to have the mass on our side to >>>> intensify > our sttruggle for socialism and finally communism. > > We >>>> may >>>> know that God does not exist on the bases of scientific evidence,We >>>> may know that there is nothing like ancestors and we may know that >>>> bible >>>> is > document to delay the struggle for better life and is full of man >>>> made > lies.All of the above cannot be understood by ordinary peasants >>>> and workers >>>> and I can assusre comrade should you continue with that you will loose >>>> the > most important support and you will infact be delaying our road >>>> to >>>> > socialism. > > In short it is important that when we provide >>>> > political >>>> education we must >>>> strtegically concentrate on the curent community problems and how YCL >>>> can > help the communities to overcome poverty instead of concentrating >>>> on things > that young and uneducated comrade from Ga-Moloi cannot >>>> understand. >>>> > > TamaKgoši, > > Howard > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:36 AM, patrick >>>> > > Mbatha > < [email protected] >wrote: > >>>>> COMDRADE MAVIYO NDINISA youare raising a very sensetive issue and I >>>>> agree >> with you however I feel that this is an attack to >>>>> christianity >>>>> not >> religion >> in general. >> >>>>> >> On 2/11/10, Ndinisa Maviyo < [email protected] > wrote: >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Let us engage on this discussion,enrich it. >>> >>>>>> -- >>> You are subscribed. 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