The below post seems to be a common outcome of engagmemt with zen practice in these modern days with so much information about industrial food production.
But I wouldn't make it an absolute. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Jul 26, 2011, at 13:36, Maria Lopez <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Edgar and Bill: > > Reducing the suffering of all forms of life in my view involves to be a > vegetarian if conditions are adecuate for it. Though It's true that being a > vegetarian is a very personal choice to make. > > If one is not a vegetarian then needs to pay attention to the procedence of > that meat, how was brought the animal, the kind of food the animal ate, if > the animal was in a free land or hold under cruelty, the transport in which > the anymal was taken to the manslaughter, , the form in which the animas was > killed.....One has to be very cautious about what one ingests as we are what > we eat. and that is not buddhist, christian, zen....but the awareness of the > reality as a fact about not being separated from the rest of life forms. > True that we have to survive and that in order to survive we have to kill > different forms of life but awareness of what we ingest will make one become > a vegetarian most of times as there is a reduction in the suffering caused to > other forms of life. This is only my personal view. > Mayka > > > > --- On Tue, 26/7/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Bill! <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Need help with the fear of death > To: [email protected] > Date: Tuesday, 26 July, 2011, 15:16 > > Edgar, > If someone directs a question specifically to me I always try to answer, but > I must admit that sometimes the content of your posts, like the one below, > are a mystery to me. I will however try to answer and have embedded my > responses in your post : > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill are you telling us you aren't a vegetarian? > [Bill!] No, I wasn't trying to indicate whether or not I was a vegetarian in > my post below. I was not talking about myself at all. DP had interpreted > one part of the Buddhist Eightfold Path- Right Action - as a prohibition of > the eating of animal products. I was pointing out that Right Action ( as > well as all of the Eightfold Path) is Buddhist doctrine. As you well know I > do not believe zen is merely a sub-set of Buddhism nor has a co-dependency on > Buddhism. As such I do not believe that the Eightfold Path has any relevancy > to zen, at least as far as being a doctrine, dogma or set of rules that need > to be followed. And anyway there are no translations of Right Action that I > have seen that specifically prohibit the eating of animal products or that > requires vegetarianism. The translations I have seen define Right Action as > 'abstaining from taking life, from stealing, and from illicit sex [or sexual > misconduct]'. > But since you are asking (in an oblique way) I will now tell you that I am > not a vegetarian. > >If so how do you justify taking the lives of sentient creatures to eat? > [Bill!] Are your questions just ill-thought out, or do you purpose pose them > in such a curious manner? > I don't try to justify my conduct. To whom would I justify it? You? The > Zen Forum? Buddha? God? > What do you mean by 'sentient creatures'? Do you mean 'animals' as opposed > to 'plants'? Do you think that this is relevant to the Eightfold Path of > Right Action? It says you should abstain from 'taking life'. I read that as > all life, not just the life of 'sentient creatures' or animals or sentient > beings. Why do you single out 'sentient creatures' from other life forms? > Isn't life all life? What makes the difference if the life manifests itself > as what we have classified as 'plant' or 'animal, or 'sentient' or > 'not-sentient'? > If you'd like to start a discussion thread on Justification, the Eightfold > Path, Right Action, the practice of vegetarianism in Buddhsim, or any other > topics like these I would be glad to participate; but I do not intend to put > a lot of my time and effort as I have here into responding to jumbled up > questions like the one above. > > Edgar > ...Bill! > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2011, at 9:38 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > DP, > > > > > > My take on this is: > > > > > > 'Right Action' is part of Buddhist dogma. So is vegatarianism. So would > > > be any dietary restrictions. > > > > > > Zen practice is just eating what the cook prepares. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "D P" wookielifeday@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I can see that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: > > > > > > > > I have OCD about contracting horrible diseases. Part of my response to > > > > my OCD is to accept the fact that I may in fact be exposing myself to > > > > these horrible diseases just through regular day-by-day activities. > > > > > > > > But in that case, what is Right Action? By accepting that I am > > > > endangering myself just by living, am I abdicating my duty to Right > > > > Action? > > > > > > > > PArt of my anxiety is also that certain products may or may not have > > > > animal products. The OCD initial response is to check all labels for > > > > animal products. But 1) that's impossible, and 2) that's feeding my OCD. > > > > > > > > But is it Right Action not to check? > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Mark Perew <mperew@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > DP > > > > > > > > > > Living in the moment, mindfulness, is very different from living for > > > > > the > > > > > moment. Can you spot the difference? How might those be different in > > > > > your > > > > > practice? > > > > > On Jul 21, 2011 1:16 PM, "D P" <wookielifeday@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I fear nothingness because I associate it with the western view of > > > > > nihlism. I also am put off with the idea of living for the moment, > > > > > because I > > > > > associate it with a western hedonism that I find distasteful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, what happened before us is gone, but we have touchstones to > > > > > > know that > > > > > it did exist. And the past can certainly affect us now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the "living right" is also scary because then my OCD kicks in > > > > > > that I > > > > > am somehow not doing it right! > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to forgive myself for mistakes, and accept things without > > > > > > dwelling > > > > > in depression. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> All this was gone before you were born. Do you fear that? Every > > > > > >> moment of > > > > > the past is now gone. Do you fear that? Yesterday and your yesterday > > > > > self > > > > > are now gone. Do you fear that? The previous second is now gone and > > > > > your > > > > > existence then with it. Do you fear that? No, of course not. These > > > > > are all > > > > > imaginary times that exist only in your mind as memories. Your future > > > > > death > > > > > does not exist except as an identical imagination in your mind. So > > > > > why fear > > > > > these imaginary moments after you won't be here that your mind makes > > > > > up? > > > > > They exist only in your fears, as thoughts and not in reality. The > > > > > only > > > > > reality is the present moment and you are here alive in it. And you > > > > > can > > > > > choose to infect this present moment with fear or to release it and > > > > > directly > > > > > experience total life and pure consciousness within it. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Personal death is an illusion because it will never be > > > > > >> experienced. Only > > > > > life is ever experienced. Only life can be experienced. Death can > > > > > never be > > > > > experienced so there is nothing to worry about. Thus use the freedom > > > > > you > > > > > have to optimize your life in the present moment since your life in > > > > > the > > > > > present moment is all that exists and all that ever will exist. Thus > > > > > you > > > > > must purify your consciousness in the present moment by paying no > > > > > attention > > > > > to and not dwelling on your fear of death. That will maximize life > > > > > which is > > > > > what the fear of death is really about - not being present maximally > > > > > and > > > > > totally in the present which is all that exists, which is the only > > > > > place > > > > > life can and does exist. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Worrying about death won't make any difference about whether you > > > > > >> will die > > > > > or not so it's a waste of time that diminishes your real life right > > > > > now. > > > > > It's also about bravery. Remember the samurai Zen ethic - the ultimate > > > > > bravery is to recognize and accept the possibility of your death as > > > > > ever > > > > > present and all around you and everywhere and facing it squarely to > > > > > live > > > > > every moment totally in the moment. In spite of that recognition > > > > > choose to > > > > > live totally and completely in the moment! Live every moment as your > > > > > last. > > > > > Worrying about death and letting it drain the reality of your life is > > > > > for > > > > > wimps who are not truly alive. Worrying about death is not the Zen > > > > > way... > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > >> http://EdgarLOwen.info > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Jul 20, 2011, at 9:39 PM, D P wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > But this will all be gone. All of it. That's what I fear. And it > > > > > >> > feels > > > > > like a real fear. > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Why on earth would anyone be worried about death? After all > > > > > >> > > you won't > > > > > be around or conscious to experience it! Remember you were dead > > > > > before you > > > > > were born. Do you worry about not being alive before you were born? Of > > > > > course not. Then why worry about being dead after you're dead? Same > > > > > thing > > > > > exactly. You'll be in exactly the same state, or rather no state at > > > > > all. > > > > > Death is entirely an illusion and an illusory fear. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > And even if you are still worried about death the best answer > > > > > >> > > to that > > > > > is simply to immerse yourself completely in the present moment and > > > > > enjoy it > > > > > and forget death. After all death doesn't exist. That is your death > > > > > will > > > > > never exist for you. All that will ever exist for you is life! > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > Edgar > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > On Jul 20, 2011, at 2:50 PM, D P wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Hi, > > > > > >> > > > I am sorry hthat I haven't been on here more, but I do need > > > > > >> > > > some > > > > > help right now. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > I just can't get over my fear of death. I know that in some > > > > > >> > > > ways > > > > > it's not really an issue in zen, but it still bothers me. I can't > > > > > seem to > > > > > get into the idea of living the moment. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > Does anybody have any advice, koans, or books/essays to read? > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read > > > > > > or are > > > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
