Edgar, Thanks for this post. I read it over hastily but will read it over more thoroughly in the [my] morning, and will respond as appropriate.
Good Night...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill! > > Realty is what exists in the present moment. It includes Buddha Nature and > everything including all the forms and any illusions that exist in the > present moment by manifesting Buddha Nature. But the fundamental reality of > all these forms is Buddha Nature only. > > Illusions are the differences between an organism's simulation of reality in > its mind and reality itself as it actually exists... > > > PS: I actually agree with you that all that exists is experience, but that > experience is not just in YOUR mind. That's the major disagreement I think I > have with you. Correct me if I'm wrong. What you call 'Your' mind is a > complex of forms IN experience as it becomes categorized into self and not > self. > > Experience itself is raw and unmediated. Experience itself is reality. It > consists of forms manifesting Buddha Nature. Many if not all of those forms > are illusory. But they are reality when recognized as illusory. They are > illusory only when taken as reality. > > All that exists is Xperience (I use this more general term because it applies > equally well to all things, not just human minds). Even the most profound and > complex intellectual theory ultimately exists only as experience, as the > experience of its forms. > > All that exists is Xperience only. Reality is not at its most fundamental > level a physical structure. It consists of Xperience, the Xperience of > everything in the universe of everything else. Your Experience is just part > of that overall structure... > > First is xperience, then it's categorized and analyzed and theorized, but > ultimately it all remains xperience only, the xperience of those processes... > > Including my experience of thinking and writing this right now.. > > Thus it is clear that experience has a logical structure. And since xperience > is the ultimate reality, that ultimate reality must also have a logical > structure. > > Our basic disagreement as I see it is that recognizing this I embrace this > logical structure of experience as a manifestation of the reality of Buddha > Nature since, as we agree, experience is the ONLY reality, and it has a > logical structure, while you throw up your hands and deny that part of > experience is reality, and claim only the formless aspect of Buddha nature > you experience while doing zazen is reality. > > As I say over and over, ALL of experience is reality, all of experience > manifests Buddha Nature, not just the formless aspect of it. > > > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 7, 2012, at 4:36 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I've yet to see a set of succinct definitions of what you mean by 'reality' > > and 'illusions'. How about taking the list I posted and tell us what your > > definitions are? > > > > And try to keep the definitions to a couple sentences. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > I've been trying to do just that in almost every one of my posts since > > > I've been here but apparently not well enough... > > > :-( > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:41 AM, ED wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > What you mean by 'reality' is different from what Bill! means by > > > > 'reality'. In a recent post, Bill! has stated in some detail the > > > > meaning he attaches to the word 'reality. You may want to define what > > > > you mean by 'reality'. Then, we may be able to see how and why you two > > > > are in disagreement over 'reality'. > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill! > > > > > > > > > > Whoh now Bill! It's YOU that is telling Merle TO run out on the > > > > > street without looking because it is YOU than claims that reality has > > > > > no logical structure and thus if Merle gets run over by a bus it's > > > > > all in her mind as an illusion and not reality. > > > > > > > > > > It's ME that is telling Merle, and to the point you, NOT to run out > > > > > on the street without looking because it's ME that is saying that > > > > > buses are real and you can really get killed running out in front of > > > > > one BECAUSE REALITY HAS A LOGICAL STRUCTURE AND FOLLOWS THE LAWS OF > > > > > NATURE and that my friend is NOT an illusion... > > > > > > > > > > I do however agree with you, as I've often tried to point out, that > > > > > each of us models the laws of nature somewhat differently in our > > > > > respective minds. But because our mental models of reality are > > > > > imperfect that DOES NOT MEAN that what they model, the laws of > > > > > nature, do not exist.... > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
