Edgar,
I got up this morning, had a cup of tea and settled in to watch CNN 360 when a
neighbor had an emergency which captured my attention so I am just now able to
attend to your post.
I'm feeling very generous this morning so I will forgo the usual 'tough love'
and concentrate instead on 'kumyaya love'...
As usual my comments are embedded below:
> > Bill!
> >
> > Realty is what exists in the present moment. It includes Buddha Nature and
> > everything including all the forms and any illusions that exist in the
> > present moment by manifesting Buddha Nature. But the fundamental reality of
> > all these forms is Buddha Nature only.
[Bill!] Okay. I think then I can say that our differences in the way we use
the term 'reality' is that I call 'reality' what you call 'fundamental
reality', and you call 'reality' what I call 'reality' plus 'illusions'. Or
symbolically:
[Bill] REALITY = Fundamental Reality = Buddha Nature
[EDGAR] FUNDAMENTAL REALITY = Buddha Nature
REALITY = Fundamental Reality + Illusions.
> > Illusions are the differences between an organism's simulation of reality
> > in its mind and reality itself as it actually exists...
[Bill!] Agreed!
> > PS: I actually agree with you that all that exists is experience, but that
> > experience is not just in YOUR mind. That's the major disagreement I think
> > I have with you. Correct me if I'm wrong. What you call 'Your' mind is a
> > complex of forms IN experience as it becomes categorized into self and not
> > self.
[Bill!] I do agree with you that his area is an area of disagreement if I'm
understanding you correctly. To put it in simple terms, I believe Reality is
ONLY what you experience and there is no more. An example: Right now I hear
the sound of a rooster crowing outside my window. The SOUND is REALITY, and it
is the SUM TOTAL of reality. It is experienced by Buddha Nature - in fact the
very EXPERIENCE itself IS Buddha Nature. The inferences that the sound is from
a rooster, and that the rooster is something separate from me, and that it is
in a different location than me, etc..., are all products of my dualistic mind,
and are what I generalize and term as 'illusion'. And this INCLUDES
inferences, and projections that lead me to believe there are other roosters
living in the USA or France. I am not experiencing them. The 'idea' of them
is just that, an idea, an inference - or what I generalize and term illusions.
And I do include logical inferences in this category. I maintain Illusions do
not exist in Buddha Nature because again I believe Buddha Nature is sensory
experience only, or what you have called above 'Fundamental Reality'. I
believe our logical inferences what cascade out from our experience are not
'Fundamental Reality' have a dualistic base so are part of our discriminating
mind, not of Buddha Nature.
I am also uncomfortable with your characterization of what you think I believe
as "What you call 'Your' mind is a complex of forms IN experience as it becomes
categorized into self and not self." That's close, but you need to again be
very careful about the terms. I do believe Buddha Nature (singular) is
Experience, is Reality. I do believe 'our individual discriminating minds'
(plural)when they arise then create dualism which allows for the dualistic set
of Reality/Illusions. If there is no dualism, only Buddha Nature there is only
Reality - no Illusions. Or as I say (and I know you're sick of reading it but
it's the best I can do...) Just THIS!
> > Experience itself is raw and unmediated. Experience itself is reality.
[Bill!] Yes! Yes! Yes!
> >It consists of forms manifesting Buddha Nature.
[Bill!] Reality/Experience is Emptiness. Forms are generated and imposed by
our discriminating minds. Emptiness is Emptiness. Forms are Forms. They are
not interchangeable.
> >Many if not all of those forms are illusory. But they are reality when
> >recognized as illusory. They are illusory only when taken as reality.
[Bill!] Some of those Forms are based on Reality/Experience and some are not,
but even those based on inferences about Reality/Experience are not Reality,
they are Forms. I say all Forms are Illusory - dualistic products of our
discriminating minds.
> > All that exists is Xperience (I use this more general term because it
> > applies equally well to all things, not just human minds). Even the most
> > profound and complex intellectual theory ultimately exists only as
> > experience, as the experience of its forms.
[Bill!] I'm not sure about this new (to me) term 'Xperience'. How does that
differ from 'Experience', or is it just a short-hand way of writing
'Experience'? Anyway I disagree with the last phrase of your last sentence
above: "...as the experience of its forms." You don't Experience Forms. You
create them. You only Experience Reality.
> > All that exists is Xperience only. Reality is not at its most fundamental
> > level a physical structure. It consists of Xperience, the Xperience of
> > everything in the universe of everything else. Your Experience is just part
> > of that overall structure...
[Bill!] I thought I was going to agree with this but I see now that you do
differentiate between 'Xperience' and 'Experience'. It now seems you are
saying we each individually have 'Experience', but the total summation of all
'Experiences' is 'Xperience'. Is that what you're implying? I hope not.
And while I'm at it I'd strengthen your statement to say 'Reality has nothing
to do with the concept of 'physicality'. That too is what I'd call an illusion.
> > First is xperience, then it's categorized and analyzed and theorized, but
> > ultimately it all remains xperience only, the xperience of those
> > processes...
> > Including my experience of thinking and writing this right now..
[Bill!] You've lost me here...
> > Thus it is clear that experience has a logical structure. And since
> > xperience is the ultimate reality, that ultimate reality must also have a
> > logical structure.
[Bill!] What you call 'Fundamental Experience' does NOT have a logical
structure. Structure is super-imposed upon Experience after-the-fact by our
discriminating minds. But, I guess I'm just re-stating my position here,
probably to no avail.
> > Our basic disagreement as I see it is that recognizing this I embrace this
> > logical structure of experience as a manifestation of the reality of Buddha
> > Nature since, as we agree, experience is the ONLY reality, and it has a
> > logical structure, while you throw up your hands and deny that part of
> > experience is reality, and claim only the formless aspect of Buddha nature
> > you experience while doing zazen is reality.
[Bill!] I'd say that's about 90% correct. I'd wordsmith a few things before I
could accept it completely but most especially I'd have to drop a small but
important portion of the last sentence, "...while doing zazen...". Buddha
Nature is not only manifested while I'm doing zazen but at other times too.
> > As I say over and over, ALL of experience is reality, all of experience
> > manifests Buddha Nature, not just the formless aspect of it.
[Bill!] And I also say all experience is reality, and all reality is formless
(empty). Forms are supplied by our discriminating mind, and being dualistic
cannot be said to be Buddha Nature.
> >
> > Edgar
[Bill!] Thanks a lot for clarifying your position and the terms you use in
this post. It will help me better communicate with you in the future.
...Bill!
> >
> >
> > On Sep 7, 2012, at 4:36 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > > Edgar,
> > >
> > > I've yet to see a set of succinct definitions of what you mean by
> > > 'reality' and 'illusions'. How about taking the list I posted and tell us
> > > what your definitions are?
> > >
> > > And try to keep the definitions to a couple sentences.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ED,
> > > >
> > > > I've been trying to do just that in almost every one of my posts since
> > > > I've been here but apparently not well enough...
> > > > :-(
> > > >
> > > > Edgar
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sep 6, 2012, at 9:41 AM, ED wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > >
> > > > > What you mean by 'reality' is different from what Bill! means by
> > > > > 'reality'. In a recent post, Bill! has stated in some detail the
> > > > > meaning he attaches to the word 'reality. You may want to define what
> > > > > you mean by 'reality'. Then, we may be able to see how and why you
> > > > > two are in disagreement over 'reality'.
> > > > >
> > > > > --ED
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whoh now Bill! It's YOU that is telling Merle TO run out on the
> > > > > > street without looking because it is YOU than claims that reality
> > > > > > has no logical structure and thus if Merle gets run over by a bus
> > > > > > it's all in her mind as an illusion and not reality.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's ME that is telling Merle, and to the point you, NOT to run out
> > > > > > on the street without looking because it's ME that is saying that
> > > > > > buses are real and you can really get killed running out in front
> > > > > > of one BECAUSE REALITY HAS A LOGICAL STRUCTURE AND FOLLOWS THE LAWS
> > > > > > OF NATURE and that my friend is NOT an illusion...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do however agree with you, as I've often tried to point out, that
> > > > > > each of us models the laws of nature somewhat differently in our
> > > > > > respective minds. But because our mental models of reality are
> > > > > > imperfect that DOES NOT MEAN that what they model, the laws of
> > > > > > nature, do not exist....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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