Mike, I included you just because you were in the thread..
Edgar On Sep 12, 2012, at 7:51 AM, mike brown wrote: > > Edgar, > > Not sure why you included me in who you addressed this to? I've been saying > all along that we are a body/mind organism and transcending the body isn't > desirable, never mind possible (except temporarily at most). Even if you > wanted to enter the jhanic mind state, it is understood that this is only > ever a temporary abode. > > Mike > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 12:03 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Pain & Pleasure > > > Kris, Mike, JM, > > It's very easy to transcend the body and go directly to Nirvana. > > Just kill yourself.... Total irrevocable mindlessness! > > As long as you are in your body you can NEVER transcend it except partially > for a few hours at most... This realization was a major step in my own Zen. > Buddha also tried extreme asceticism and finally rejected it as a false > path... > > Trying to transcend your body is a false path... > > As long as you are in your body you MUST deal with the world of forms > including your body and its needs. The way to do that is to realize that Zen > is the realization of the world of forms as MANIFESTATIONS of Buddha Nature > rather than something that stands between you and Buddha Nature and that > keeps you from enlightenment... > > The world of forms realized as the manifestation of Buddha Nature IS > enlightenment! > > Edgar > > On Sep 11, 2012, at 10:35 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > Kris, > > > > There's a big difference between what the ascetics were seeking to do and > > what Buddha taught. What the ascetics were seeking was a spiritual goal, > > namely the denial of the body in order for the mind to unite with Brahma. > > Vipassana practice has nothing to do with denying the body. Quite the > > opposite in fact, which is why I addressed JM's last post because it seemed > > to go against what Buddha taught. > > > > > > In samatha (calm or tranquility) meditation, we take an object of > > meditation (such as the breath) until we reach a stage of one-pointed > > concentration or absorbtion (samadhi) which can lead us into jhana. Because > > we are being mindful before entering into jhana, we can also experience > > extreme (but not injurious) discomfort in our body. A couple of the factors > > of the first jhana are that it is very pleasant/blissful because the 5 > > Hindrances are temporarily extinguished and so pain disappears the instant > > we enter into it. One of the advantages of this bliss is that with insight > > (vipassana) we can see the temporary nature of both these states > > (pleasure/pain) in a way that speculating over them can't. They're real, > > not imagined. So there's nothing about samatha meditation that is about > > detachment or denial. It's much more about being affirmative of body/mind > > reality. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Kristopher Grey <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:36 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Pain & Pleasure > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > I was going to mention ascetic practices/aspects when you brought > > up the pain/bliss interaction in your sitting (I let it go, but > > look! You found it anyway! *L*). > > > > You said: "I've gone from the most intense white-hot pain to the most > > ecstatic bliss in an instant." Sounds like what ascetics seek to do. Endure > > this, get that ( I realize this is but an aspect of your practice, and not > > its focus). > > > > While a sort of overall balance may be developed in working with > > the tension between pain & pleasure, and can expand our > > capacities for both, the Middle Way doesn't lie stretched between > > them. Buddha learned lessons from both, as we all can while caught > > in life's tides, but he didn't strike a bargain to merely split > > the difference. ;) > > > > Everything instructs, but we needn't attend to everything to > > realize this. > > > > KG > > > > PS - To be clear, this is not a commentary on your practice Mike, > > or anyone else's. Just speaking to the general themes. > > > > > > > > On 9/11/2012 8:49 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > >> JM, > >> > >> > >> Isn't that what the ascetics tried to do to reach a yogic union with > >> Brahma, but Buddha rejected? In the sutras Buddha talks about being > >> mindful of the breath/body. Do you really mean "detach"? I'm not sure how > >> long you could survive being Enlightened if you couldn't put food to your > >> mouth when you're hungry (that's not being facetious). > >> > >> > >> Mike > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Cc: mike brown <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 1:21 > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering > >> > >> > >> > >> If I may add to this... > >> > >> My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs > > during sitting..." In other words, it is > > for training our mind to be detached from our > > physical body. Because, the physical body is > > our first hindrance to enlightenment. Then > > there is the hindrance of our mind and > > hindrance of our spirit to surpass next... > > Not hard. Right? :-) > >> > >> > >> > >> On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: > >> > >> > >>> ED, > >>> > >>> > >>> I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're > >>> taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach us > >>> insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can > >>> honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, sometimes > >>> creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my life! The only > >>> time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is when I've entered > >>> into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've gone from the most intense > >>> white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in an instant. Of course, and > >>> here's the lesson, this state passes and the pain comes back once more. A > >>> valuable lesson in the arising and passing of phenomena that is way > >>> beyond just an intellectual understanding. > >>> > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: ED <[email protected]> > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 > >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Bill! and Mike, > >>> > >>> Is it not the case that zazen > > or vipasana can also help > > alleviate pain? > >>> > >>> --ED > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Merle, > >>>> > >>>> I am also 66! > >>>> > >>>> I'm about to give you > > some of my definitions of > > terms and they're > >>> pretty 'tough-love' > > definitions so be warned... > >>>> > >>>> Pain is NOT suffering. > > Pain is pain. Suffering is > > feeling sorry for > >>> yourself (your self) because > > perhaps you're in pain and > > that does not > >>> meet up with your expectations > > and disappoints you. > >>>> > >>>> You do not have to > > suffer. > >>>> > >>>> The best example I know > > of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm > > sure you've > >>> seen many of them. They aren't > > suffering because (I presume) > > they don't > >>> have a strong 'mental model' > > of 'self'. They don't feel > > sorry for > >>> themselves. They don't compare > > themselves to other dogs. They > > just make > >>> do with what they've got. I've > > seen dogs with only 2 legs and > > they don't > >>> act any differently than those > > with 4. You could be a little > >>> condescending and say 'they > > don't know any better' - when > > actually you > >>> should be just saying 'they > > don't know' - and good for > > them. > >>>> > >>>> Contrast that with a > > human who has lost a leg. Many > > such humans will > >>> suffer. They'll wonder 'why > > me'? 'What did I do to deserve > > this?' And be > >>> envious of full-bodied humans > > who can do more and have more > > than they. > >>> Why? Because they DO have a > > strong 'mental model' of > > 'self' and have > >>> expectations of what life > > SHOULD be like, and do compare > > themselves with > >>> others. Their life is not like > > others (the majority) and this > >>> disappoints them so they > > suffer. > >>>> > >>>> Zazen can help... > >>>> > >>>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > >
