Mike, This is a misunderstanding of Hui Neng's poem...
It's not that the dust has nowhere to settle but that the dust itself is DUSTLESS... Meaning that everything in reality is a manifestations of Buddha Nature, even dust. Edgar On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:08 AM, mike brown wrote: > > Chris, > > >because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete as > >it is > > I often ask myself the same thing. Hui-eng's poem was accepted by his master > because he spoke of there being no mirror to polish so there is no where for > the dust to settle. Yet Buddha spoke about people having different amounts of > dust in their eyes. It's not really an either/or argument (I don't want to > end up as a fox for 500 rebirths!). One speaks of ultimate truth - the other > a conventional truth. I'm still largely a prisoner of conditions, even though > I intuitively know that these conditions are illusionary. But to "just drop > them", as so many people here are want to say, is rather easier to say than > actually do. So I keep polishing, because even though mirror may, or may not, > exist - I know that the dust does. [insert ironic statements here ; )]. > > Mike > > From: ChrisAustinLane <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 0:38 > Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > > I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you ask some > tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a sesshin (part > of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have not replied because > this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete as it is. > Too funny but still. > > I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a lot, > nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting (alas that > one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between preference and reality, > in order to be a decent parent), but they definitely make things easier; if > not by insight at least by spaciousness. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Merle, >> >> Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the day to >> day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within ourselves. >> It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one of the most >> difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the insights we can >> get from it, which might not be possible with our busy schedules, help us to >> deal with the stuff everyday life throws at us. Don't knock it til you try >> it! : ) >> >> Mike >> >> From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07 >> Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power >> >> >> >> ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other >> religions pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset the >> apple cart so to speak.... going out in the real world...facing it...that's >> when the "trouble " starts...that's when you need the "tools of survival" to >> get through the day.. >> .reality dawns >> and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know >> that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day! >> merle >> >> >> JM, >> >> >Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. >> >Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint >> >was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. >> >> Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. >> Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own room >> or in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 hours a day >> meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence with no reading or >> writing material, music, books or cell phones etc. >> >> 4:00 – 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower >> 04:30 – 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory) >> 06:30 – 08:00 Breakfast & Rest >> 08:00 – 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> 10:00 – 11:00 Meditation in Hall (usually compulsory) >> 11:00 – 13:00 Lunch & Rest >> 13:00 – 14:30 Meditation in Hall (not compulsory) >> 14:30 – 17:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> 17:00 – 18:00 Tea-time >> 18:00 – 19:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> 19:00 – 20:20 Goenka Discourse Video >> 20:30 – 21:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> 21:00 – 22:00 Shower & Rest >> 22:00 Lights Out >> >> A pretty intense schedule, but a great opportunity be free of the usual >> daily distractions in order to go deep into the mind. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:15 >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering >> >> >> Let me add to this... Surpass all comfort zone, all the knowledge, all the >> basis, in short everything, is the key to Chan. >> >> Our minimum requirement is half lotus. Most of the serious practitioners do >> full lotus. I do, because full lotus on the floor, opens up all the >> meridians near the hip and the legs, so that our body can be in tip top >> shape. >> >> Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. >> Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint was >> told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. >> >> jm >> >> >> On 9/11/2012 7:45 PM, mike brown wrote: >>> >>> Bill!, >>> >>> There are many different reasons why practioners from different traditions >>> sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the discomfort to see >>> into how and the body affects the mind. If we constantly rearrange our >>> sitting position when we experience discomfort, we miss the opportunity to >>> see how dukkha (dissatisfaction) operates. That's one of the great things >>> about mindfulness - we can go deeply into phenomena to see the 3 >>> Characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, no-self) in operation. Sitting thru >>> discomfort (dis-ease) is a great tool. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> From: Bill! <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering >>> >>> >>> JMJM, et al... >>> >>> My initial teachers encouraged me to switch legs, rock back and forth, >>> stand up and walk around and even use different postures, (full-lotus, >>> half-lotus, cross-legged, kneeling and even just sitting on a chair - as >>> long as whatever posture I used allowed me to breathe freely and deeply. >>> That requires at least an erect back to allow for 'belly breathing' >>> (breathing by using the diaphragm instead of the chest or shoulders). Of >>> course if we were sitting with a group we were encouraged not to change >>> legs or do anything overt which might bother others. Our sitting sessions >>> were usually 20-40 mins, then a 5-min break, and then another session. We >>> would sit 3 sessions like that. >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@...> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > If I may add to this... >>> > >>> > My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other >>> > words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical >>> > body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to >>> > enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance of >>> > our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) >>> > >>> > >>> > On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >>> > > ED, >>> > > >>> > > I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're >>> > > taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach us >>> > > insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can >>> > > honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, >>> > > sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my >>> > > life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is >>> > > when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've gone >>> > > from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in an >>> > > instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and the >>> > > pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and >>> > > passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual >>> > > understanding. >>> > > >>> > > Mike >>> > > >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> > > *From:* ED <seacrofter001@...> >>> > > *To:* [email protected] >>> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 >>> > > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Bill! and Mike, >>> > > >>> > > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain? >>> > > >>> > > --ED >>> > > >>> > > --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >>> > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >>> > > > >>> > > > Merle, >>> > > > >>> > > > I am also 66! >>> > > > >>> > > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're >>> > > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... >>> > > > >>> > > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for >>> > > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not >>> > > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. >>> > > > >>> > > > You do not have to suffer. >>> > > > >>> > > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've >>> > > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't >>> > > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for >>> > > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make >>> > > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't >>> > > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little >>> > > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you >>> > > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. >>> > > > >>> > > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will >>> > > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be >>> > > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they. >>> > > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have >>> > > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with >>> > > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this >>> > > disappoints them so they suffer. >>> > > > >>> > > > Zazen can help... >>> > > > >>> > > > ...Bill! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >
