Bill, That's why in this lifetime you will always be plagued by dust and consider it a nuisance, rather than realizing it's Buddha nature and enjoying it as a natural part of reality...
Edgar On Sep 14, 2012, at 3:44 AM, billsmart wrote: > Edgar, > > That's not my understanding of Hui Neng's poem. My understanding (aka, > accommodate it in my default mental model)is: > > Dust is illusion - Maya. The mirror is your discriminating, dualistic mind. > Dust clinging to the mirror is attachment. The first monk's poem of 'keeping > the mirror clean' means continually severing attachments. Hui Neng's poem 'no > mirror where dust can alight' means realizing your discriminating, dualistic > mind is illusory - it's not really there. Only Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > This is a misunderstanding of Hui Neng's poem... > > > > It's not that the dust has nowhere to settle but that the dust itself is > > DUSTLESS... > > > > Meaning that everything in reality is a manifestations of Buddha Nature, > > even dust. > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:08 AM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > >because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete > > > >as it is > > > > > > I often ask myself the same thing. Hui-eng's poem was accepted by his > > > master because he spoke of there being no mirror to polish so there is no > > > where for the dust to settle. Yet Buddha spoke about people having > > > different amounts of dust in their eyes. It's not really an either/or > > > argument (I don't want to end up as a fox for 500 rebirths!). One speaks > > > of ultimate truth - the other a conventional truth. I'm still largely a > > > prisoner of conditions, even though I intuitively know that these > > > conditions are illusionary. But to "just drop them", as so many people > > > here are want to say, is rather easier to say than actually do. So I keep > > > polishing, because even though mirror may, or may not, exist - I know > > > that the dust does. [insert ironic statements here ; )]. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > From: ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> > > > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 0:38 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > > > > > > > > I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you ask > > > some tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a > > > sesshin (part of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have not > > > replied because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is > > > complete as it is. Too funny but still. > > > > > > I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a lot, > > > nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting (alas > > > that one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between preference and > > > reality, in order to be a decent parent), but they definitely make things > > > easier; if not by insight at least by spaciousness. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Chris Austin-Lane > > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > > > > >> Merle, > > >> > > >> Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the day > > >> to day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within > > >> ourselves. It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one of > > >> the most difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the > > >> insights we can get from it, which might not be possible with our busy > > >> schedules, help us to deal with the stuff everyday life throws at us. > > >> Don't knock it til you try it! : ) > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> > > >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07 > > >> Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other > > >> religions pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset the > > >> apple cart so to speak.... going out in the real world...facing > > >> it...that's when the "trouble " starts...that's when you need the "tools > > >> of survival" to get through the day.. > > >> .reality dawns > > >> and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know > > >> that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day! > > >> merle > > >> > > >> > > >> JM, > > >> > > >> >Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without > > >> >moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha > > >> >Heart Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. > > >> > > >> Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. > > >> Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own > > >> room or in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 > > >> hours a day meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence > > >> with no reading or writing material, music, books or cell phones etc. > > >> > > >> 4:00 â€" 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower > > >> 04:30 â€" 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory) > > >> 06:30 â€" 08:00 Breakfast & Rest > > >> 08:00 â€" 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > >> 10:00 â€" 11:00 Meditation in Hall (usually compulsory) > > >> 11:00 â€" 13:00 Lunch & Rest > > >> 13:00 â€" 14:30 Meditation in Hall (not compulsory) > > >> 14:30 â€" 17:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > >> 17:00 â€" 18:00 Tea-time > > >> 18:00 â€" 19:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > >> 19:00 â€" 20:20 Goenka Discourse Video > > >> 20:30 â€" 21:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > >> 21:00 â€" 22:00 Shower & Rest > > >> 22:00 Lights Out > > >> > > >> A pretty intense schedule, but a great opportunity be free of the usual > > >> daily distractions in order to go deep into the mind. > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@...> > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:15 > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering > > >> > > >> > > >> Let me add to this... Surpass all comfort zone, all the knowledge, all > > >> the basis, in short everything, is the key to Chan. > > >> > > >> Our minimum requirement is half lotus. Most of the serious practitioners > > >> do full lotus. I do, because full lotus on the floor, opens up all the > > >> meridians near the hip and the legs, so that our body can be in tip top > > >> shape. > > >> > > >> Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without > > >> moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart > > >> Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. > > >> > > >> jm > > >> > > >> > > >> On 9/11/2012 7:45 PM, mike brown wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Bill!, > > >>> > > >>> There are many different reasons why practioners from different > > >>> traditions sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the > > >>> discomfort to see into how and the body affects the mind. If we > > >>> constantly rearrange our sitting position when we experience > > >>> discomfort, we miss the opportunity to see how dukkha (dissatisfaction) > > >>> operates. That's one of the great things about mindfulness - we can go > > >>> deeply into phenomena to see the 3 Characteristics (impermanence, > > >>> dukkha, no-self) in operation. Sitting thru discomfort (dis-ease) is a > > >>> great tool. > > >>> > > >>> Mike > > >>> > > >>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 > > >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> JMJM, et al... > > >>> > > >>> My initial teachers encouraged me to switch legs, rock back and forth, > > >>> stand up and walk around and even use different postures, (full-lotus, > > >>> half-lotus, cross-legged, kneeling and even just sitting on a chair - > > >>> as long as whatever posture I used allowed me to breathe freely and > > >>> deeply. That requires at least an erect back to allow for 'belly > > >>> breathing' (breathing by using the diaphragm instead of the chest or > > >>> shoulders). Of course if we were sitting with a group we were > > >>> encouraged not to change legs or do anything overt which might bother > > >>> others. Our sitting sessions were usually 20-40 mins, then a 5-min > > >>> break, and then another session. We would sit 3 sessions like that. > > >>> > > >>> ...Bill! > > >>> > > >>> --- In [email protected], 覺妙精明 > > >>> （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > If I may add to this... > > >>> > > > >>> > My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other > > >>> > words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical > > >>> > body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to > > >>> > enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance > > >>> > of > > >>> > our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: > > >>> > > ED, > > >>> > > > > >>> > > I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're > > >>> > > taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach > > >>> > > us > > >>> > > insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can > > >>> > > honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, > > >>> > > sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my > > >>> > > life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated > > >>> > > is > > >>> > > when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've > > >>> > > gone > > >>> > > from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in > > >>> > > an > > >>> > > instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and > > >>> > > the > > >>> > > pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and > > >>> > > passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual > > >>> > > understanding. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Mike > > >>> > > > > >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> > > *From:* ED <seacrofter001@> > > >>> > > *To:* [email protected] > > >>> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 > > >>> > > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Bill! and Mike, > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate > > >>> > > pain? > > >>> > > > > >>> > > --ED > > >>> > > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected] > > >>> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > >>> > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Merle, > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > I am also 66! > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're > > >>> > > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry > > >>> > > > for > > >>> > > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does > > >>> > > not > > >>> > > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > You do not have to suffer. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've > > >>> > > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they > > >>> > > don't > > >>> > > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for > > >>> > > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just > > >>> > > make > > >>> > > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they > > >>> > > don't > > >>> > > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little > > >>> > > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually > > >>> > > you > > >>> > > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans > > >>> > > > will > > >>> > > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' > > >>> > > And be > > >>> > > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than > > >>> > > they. > > >>> > > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have > > >>> > > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves > > >>> > > with > > >>> > > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this > > >>> > > disappoints them so they suffer. > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > Zazen can help... > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > ...Bill! > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
