Chris,
Thanks for the well-considered and wise points.
I guess that you can see that my aim in these considerations over the decades
has stemmed from a determination to feel LESS divided from and judged by people
who express beliefs that I don't share, particularly by those, again, who
express an acceptance of the entirety of Christian tradition and teaching as
true and actual.
You write:
> It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their
> beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs
> metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace.
>
...and I think that is just right. If I were to *tell* folks that I take their
expressed-beliefs as un-fixed, tentative, or provisional, just barely
standing-in now for something that will be more perfect, more established, more
LIVED tomorrow, they'd point me in the direction of the door, I think, or
suggest something more rude.
Although I don't -- maybe can't -- intimately know the minds of those people,
nonetheless, I really suppose that some of them honestly and firmly -- and
calmly and confidently! -- believe the things they claim they believe,
especially when they "profess" them, express them as their creed. Why should I
think they are lying?
I myself had beliefs of this kind, at juvenile ages. It put great awe into me,
and made me appreciate Nature greatly. I'm grateful for that! But I have felt
no firm and confident beliefs like that since I was, say, ten years old. I
think I became a Buddhist, then. Certainly a nature-mystic, at first, in
addition to a (very) young scientist. But while I held them, the strong
beliefs that I had absorbed from the Church divided me from others. Others
could not have the ethics, the morality, we did, because they did not have our
beliefs, if they were of other churches (religions).
If the metaphor is, "The Good in us is constantly being crucified, but it
resurrects", then I am definitely on-board, and not divided.
But if the teaching and teachers and practitioners do NOT take as metaphorical
Jesus' statement, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life,", then, I don't
see how to climb on board, to practice with them.
The issue is this: if they are true believers, and I take it all as wonderfully
helpful and life-giving poetry, they may resent me just "going through the
motions, and not believing anything", as they might say.
Now, then, what ABOUT the person who *is* just going through the motions, and
not believing anything?, nor even taking the teachings as useful and wise
metaphors? I think that person would be acting questionably, from everybody's
point of view. ;-)
Well, I'll let it go. I re-visit all of this very often. First leakage of it
here, I think, though.
--Joe
> ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Austin-Lane
> Sent from a cell phone
>
> On Dec 15, 2012, at 14:33, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > Thanks very much for your perspectives.
> >
> > One thing jumps out for me to be clear about:
> >
> > Joe wrote:
> >>> But can we also worship with them? I'd say "Yes". I think that ritual
> >> and group practice of this kind and other kinds (simple Assembly, or
> >> Meeting, as in Quaker practice, or Zazen as in Zen circles) graciously
> >> makes visible the invisible, which must always remain *invisible* (the
> >> Absolute).
> >
> >> Chris Austin-Lane <chris@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Them/us?
> >
> > Yes, Chris, I'm taking it all the way back to the beginning there, at the
> > end. The "them/us" is (1.) the community of those who take the revealed
> > tradition as actually and really true, and (2.) those who take it all, or
> > mostly, as metaphor.
>
> It in my experience is an error to treat what people tell you as their
> beliefs as some static thing about them. The question is beyond belief vs
> metaphor, the question is right now can I let go of my self and accept grace.
> Even with people with very conservative sounding beliefs, the person is not
> their self idea (whether they say this or not) and every person takes action
> in the moment; that moment is the crux of the matter. And sometimes a person
> expressing more open belief systems is none the less not that open to other
> people
>
> As I said there is more diversity of actual belief, varying by person but
> also by time, situation, and circumstance, among my church that I know about
> than on the internets. Dividing people into believing this or that is only
> provisionally useful and usually less useful than establishing and sticking
> to a kind perspective that seeks not to divide or judge.
>
>
> > I claim we CAN practice together Perhap, and can worship together. Even
> > though we "share" (!) different theology, don't share BELIEF (in a personal
> > God), and don't share a FAITH (in a personal Savior). Big step! I don't
> > know if you agree. But for all the reasons in my previous post, I make the
> > jump to claim we can, or that I can.
> >
> > --Joe
> >
> > PS I would not be surprised to hear that certain clergy take the whole
> > ball of wax as metaphor, even Roman Catholic priests. They may behave
> > "officially" in ways that aren't true to their metaphoric understanding,
> > however, and we might not get to know their personal appreciations unless
> > we get to know them well.
------------------------------------
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