Joe, I do put 'doubt' and 'faith' in the same category. Faith is belief, doubt is disbelief. 'Questioning', which you appropriately point out is important in some teaching schools (it was in mine), if neither belief or disbelief - it's 'don't know'.
That's the way it looks from here anyway...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > You mention doubt. > > You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, "Doubt" is > not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. It > bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a sane > mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your awakening > is living proof of this! > > Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the "doubt" that we are ENCOURAGED to > rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first one) > -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to have > the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. > > This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the > sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an > "intense spirit of QUESTIONING". > > > As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack or > weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea does, > or even as the pair "existence" and "non-existence" does. But, again, in our > training, faith and determination are not opposites. > > At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot be > grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or > manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, > and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, > determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. > > Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful as > a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent awakenings, > that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of questioning, coupled to > a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and put them in their proper > heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos away! > > --Joe > > PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, "Feliz Navidad!", from the deep Southwest). > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. They > > come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can indeed > > move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. > > > > ...Bill! > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
