Chris, We do find certainty in experience. At least I do...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Chris Austin-Lane <chris@...> wrote: > > Life is doubt. no where do we find certainty, not here and and not now > > Living is therefore an act of faith. each moment we float in this ocean, > not knowing, but still here we are. this living is faith. > > Be not afraid, and may peace and goodwill flow within and around all of > us. Merry Christmas! > On Dec 24, 2012 8:58 AM, "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > > Bill!, > > > > You mention doubt. > > > > You know -- and I know you *DO* know this!, Bill! -- in our sect, "Doubt" > > is not disbelief, nor dubiousness. It is NOT the opposite pole from Faith. > > It bears no antagonism to Faith, neither cognitively nor organically: a > > sane mind and healthy body may entertain them both simultaneously. Your > > awakening is living proof of this! > > > > Instead, in Zen training as we know it, the "doubt" that we are ENCOURAGED > > to rely upon -- while working on a koan, say (and especially on the first > > one) -- is an intense desire to experience, ...an intense determination to > > have the koan open, to dissolve and reveal treasure. > > > > This desire that we employ is not doubt or dubiousness, or distrust of the > > sincerity of our teachers nor of our tradition nor tools. It is instead an > > "intense spirit of QUESTIONING". > > > > > > As you say, before awakening, faith and doubt, or perhaps faith and a lack > > or weakness of faith, come in the dual pair just as any substantive idea > > does, or even as the pair "existence" and "non-existence" does. But, > > again, in our training, faith and determination are not opposites. > > > > At awakening and after awakening there are no categories, and names cannot > > be grasped, but the flavor of things is there, as one bright display or > > manifestation of the mind; nothing remains and nothing leaves any residue, > > and we catch onto no snags. But let's leave that aside. ;-) Faith, > > determination, doubt and disbelief do not arise. > > > > Now, because multiple awakenings are possible, faith can again be helpful > > as a tool, a familiar one. Thus, to encourage yet again subsequent > > awakenings, that faith, plus determination or a strong spirit of > > questioning, coupled to a strong practice, can move illusory mountains and > > put them in their proper heaven, and sink any ship you like, Yes. Torpedos > > away! > > > > --Joe > > > > PS (speaking of gift-wrapped, "Feliz Navidad!", from the deep Southwest). > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > What you say is true, but where you have faith you also have doubt. > > They come in the same gift-wrapped, illusory dualistic set. Faith can > > indeed move mountains, but doubt can sink ships. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
