Mike, Siska, Joe, I think the problem is just a semantic one. It's already been alluded to, but the English word 'know' can be very ambiguous and is used to communicate a variety of different things. An online dictionary includes as definitions of 'know': 1- hold information in mind: to have information firmly in the mind or committed to memory 2- be certain about something: to believe firmly in the truth or certainty of something 3 - realize something: to be or become aware of something
Each of these means something entirely different to me, but I do associate 'know' with the intellect and not with Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "mike" <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, Joe, > > I was using the expression (with Siska) to express the idea that you'll know > you've (unquestionably) experienced Buddha Nature the same way you know your > iced-tea is cold when you sip it on a hot summer's day (paraphrasing the old > story). There's nothing metaphysical about it. I think it's a bit silly (to > be honest!) to talk about Buddha Nature not "knowing" if a drink is hot or > cold. Buddha Nature is not some objective noun 'out here', but operates thru > us. Hot and cold maybe relative, but you'll certainly know if your soup is > hot if you drop it in your lap! > > Mike > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > The Cleary translation is pretty much the same except the last response. > > It is, "When it's cold, the cold kills you, when it's hot, the heat kills > > you." > > > > The translation I used was from Jivacandra, a zen blogger from San > > Francisco. I don't know much about him but just wanted a version of the > > koan I could cut and paste. His translation seemed to express the same > > message to me - and that is when realizing Buddha Nature you are just > > experiencing. There is no cold, no heat - Just THIS! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > > > It's nice. Is that the Cleary? (transl.). > > > > > > We practiced it in Tucson (seriously) with Pat Hawk Roshi, as: > > > > > > "KILL yourself with heat and cold". > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > The koan that's closest to what I think you want is Case 43 in THE BLUE > > > > CLIFF RECORD - Tung Shan's No Cold or Heat > > > > > > > > "A monk asked Tung-shan, "When cold and heat come, how can we avoid > > > > them?" > > > > > > > > Tung-shan said, "Why don't you go to the place where there is no cold > > > > and no heat?" > > > > > > > > The monk said, "What is the place where there is no cold and no heat?" > > > > > > > > Tung-shan replied, "When cold comes, cold completes the monk; when heat > > > > comes, heat totals the monk."" > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > > > You are one stubborn Bodhisattva. > > > > > > > > > > Tasting warm or cold is "knowing" by the tongue. Are you the tongue? > > > > > > > > > > All other knowings are fraudulent. Two-plus-two? Has no taste at > > > > > all. It doesn't even stink. > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > PS Classic Zen story may be a koan. Let me look in Mumonkan. It > > > > > has to do of course with drinking water and knowing for oneself > > > > > whether it is warm or cold. Maybe Mumonkan Case One. Let's both > > > > > see. Thanks if you'll tell us a better translation than "know". > > > > > Anyway, "know" is jake with me, and everything else is then a > > > > > scaled-down "know", begging to be called so. > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
