Dear Sandra You have a wonderful kindly spiritual way of answering and questioning that I too learn so much so much from you. Dear Michael Sours 's letter today too is worth reading and re-reading. This lowly one will think if I can contribute to him and to you. khazeh
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sandra Chamberlain Sent: 10 June 2004 23:45 To: Baha'i Studies Subject: Re: Rev. 11:3 Dear Ahang, Please accept my sincere appreciation for suggesting that we should do "some digging" on our own. I love to do research -especially the Sacred Texts! So much so that often times I make new "discoveries" leading down a new path and different search. Just as I did today. You have always been most helpful to me in the past and personally, I do recognize that while you have done much study and research in your scholarly endeavours; you are undoubtedly a busy man. It is difficult sometimes to refrain from gleaning the insight of those we know have "done the work" and proven their knowledge. This is especially true, for me, if a statement is made without specific references, i.e.: .this was in fulfillment of Qur'anic prophecy about the "two liars" . It tends to raise all sorts of questions. sort of like hearing for the first time where babies come from. I've had occasion to research specific topics in the Quran online and often have learned much more. Regrettably, I have not read the entire Quran and it's been years since I read the entire Bible. I have read all the Sacred Texts in English over the course of 30+ years. However, after all these years on this list it has become apparent to me that those scholars who are fluent in the original languages of Arabic and Persian have been far more likely to draw on that ability and "connect the dots" so to speak. " Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths." The Valley of Knowledge - The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys, by Bahá'u'lláh, p. 32 Consequently, realizing that I simply do not have the remaining time to devote to learning these languages; being on this list and in this company is an invaluable experience for me to not only learn more but to also have the desire and find the encouragement to delve deeper into the Writings, myself. So, again, Thank You! and, also, to Michael, Khazeh, Richard and Vaughn. Lovingly, Sandra Dear Ahang, << I agree with this, but would state it slightly differently. Nabil was echoing and in fact down-playing Babi sentiments. Quddus represented himself, both in writing and apparently orally, as the return of Christ. For the Babis that was a critical point since in Shi'a eschatology, the Mihdi had to appear with the Christ. Therefore the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it, which Quddus fulfilled.>> I really know nothing about this matter apart from a vague idea of how Nabil represents things--something I'm long overdue to revisit. But I'm wondering if how you've presented this is how it is represented in Baha'i scripture or if this is just suggested in sources about Quddus? Is this scriptural: "the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it"? That is, 1) Did the Bab ever directly claim to be the Mihdi? 2) Was that claim, if made, represented by the Bab or Baha'u'llah as incomplete by itself? 3) Did the Bab assert that the return of Christ had to accompany Him or is this just assumed from traditions and verses such as "and the Prophets were brought up" (Qur'an 39:68/DB 41)? Also, how does Nabil differ from Quddus' own self-representation? Does Quddus represent himself as the Mihdi? Sorry if you've answered all these questions before. My memory isn't too good. It seems from Nabil that Quddus fulfills both positions, Mihdi and Christ's return. That is, the tradition recorded by Bukhari regarding the Mihdi is associated with Quddus: "'Should your eyes behold the Black Standards proceeding from Khurasan, hasten ye towards them, even though ye should have to crawl over the snow, inasmuch as they proclaim the advent of the promised Mihdi, the Vicegerent of God.' That standard was unfurled at the command of the Bab, *in the name of Quddus*, and by the hands of Mulla Husayn." (DB 351) This point is further asserted in this text: "In this manner they reached the shrine of Shaykh Tabarsi. The first words that fell from the lips of Quddus after he had dismounted and leaned against the shrine were the following: 'The Baqiyyatu’llah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe.' By this utterance was fulfilled the prophecy of Muhammad as recorded in the following tradition: 'And when the Mihdi is made manifest, He shall lean His back against the Ka'bih and shall address to the three hundred and thirteen followers who will have grouped around Him, these words: "The Baqiyyatu'llah will be best for you if ye are of those who believe."'" (DB 352-3) As Nabil presents it, the Bab never directly claims to be the Mihdi, only Quddus, who is likewise represented as Christ, though not as a direct echatological claim, as is the references to the Mihdi. It seems that the Bab is represented as the Mihdi only insofar as when Quddus is represented as the Mihdi, and we are led to understand that Quddus is in fact the light of the Bab after the Bab was in captivity. Nabil seems to use Qur'an 39:68, fashioned in a sermon by Siyyid Kazim, as a thesis for much in the following narrative. The christ-like representation of Quddus conforms to this early expectation. In the NT there is a progression on some eschatological matters, such as the Harrowing of Hell as eschatological fulfillment, with early texts silent or even suggesting it hadn't occurred and latter texts attributed to Paul and Peter affirming it. So perhaps something similar is occuring here. The Bab is silent, while Quddus is addressing particular expectations and only a limited picture of this is coming through in Nabil's narrative. <<Towards this, for instance, Quddus named his sister Maryam (Mary) to evoke that "Christian" connection and he modeled his life after the Christ (wearing the same type of clothing, etc). Baha'u'llah often linked Quddus with Christ, for instance, stating that in his martyrdom no one suffered more than Quddus, "not even Christ".>> Nabil mentions Quddus' unconventional dress (DB 145), but how do we know how Jesus dressed and if Quddus intended his clothes to represent those of Jesus? In saying that Quddus suffered more than Christ, Baha'u'llah would be representing him as someone unlike Christ. But perhaps that's a peculiarly Eastern way of representing likeness. But given Nabil's narrative methodology, I would not be surprised by some linkage with Baha'u'llah's writings. <<The station of Quddus is really somewhat different from Ali's. Ali never had the station of Manifestationhood, which Quddus enjoyed. That is, while he did not bring about a new Shari'a, and reflected the light of the Bab, he ranked as a Manifestation.>> A new Shari'a is not really a requirement of a Manifestation, but rather a type of Manifestation. But the connection with the Book of Revelation isn't really based on either being Manifestations, apart from prophesying and witnessing, functions of Manifestations, but not unique to Manifestations. <<There is much more on this, as we've discussed before. May be we do a paper on this someday.>> That would be fine, except that I have no qualifications or knowledge to contribute. Certainly nothing you don't already know. But I have been hoping you might put together a book on Quddus and his writings. Warmest, Michael __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
