Dear Khazeh, I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with alot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting at and are trying to avoid it.
Perhaps first and foremost the Bahahi faith is a certain way of thinking and a certain approach to religion more than a specific set of propositions and doctrines? Is that what you are trying to say? .... Khazeh: > It is all to do with understanding, recognizing, the Source of Command > [S.aahib al Amr] in each Dispensation of Providence. > Of course it is the case that in the Dispensation of the Qur'an the Law was > explicit: > We are not God forbid criticizing these or belittling or stultifying these > Commandments. Gilberto: I'm not saying you are insulting or belittling those commandments. I understand that you think very highly of Allah, Muhammad, the Quran and the Imams. But let's look again at the ayat of Quran which you mentioned: > 2:193And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should > be only for God, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility > except against the oppressors. > "Waqatiloohum hatta la takoona fitnatun wayakoona alddeenu lillahi fa-ini > intahaw fala AAudwana illa AAala alththalimeena" So the Quran permits fighting against people who are persecuting, who are oppressing. And not against those who are not oppressing. Can we agree to that? Now, when I read the passage in the Bahai writings, the section on "righteous warfare" or read about collective security, this also gives permission to fight against those who are aggressors but not against those who are peaceful, correct? So where is the progress? Are you saying that the two teachings are the same? Or are they different? > In a sense if Moses or Jesus lived in the Days of Muhammad in Arabia He > would give the same Teachings and mutatis mutandis. Okay. That is a good statement. But it is not just a matter of the calendar. It is a matter of the specific situation. But that can all be taken care of within the Quran and sunnah. Some situations now are like situations then, and if we understand the connection properly one can act accordingly. . Peace Gilberto Dear Gilberto ** Dear Khazeh, I feel like you aren't understanding what I'm saying. I try to ask simple questions to get clear answers and instead I feel like (with a lot of love and affection) you give me long answers which avoid the specific point being made. And it seems like either you don't see what I'm getting at and are just missing it, or you do see what I'm getting at and are trying to avoid it.** Dear Gilberto I try to understand. Believe me I try to understand. I am not avoiding answering. These are the points I am making. 1] The Source the Ultimate Source of the Commandments of God is the Divine Will [the Mashiyyat al-aAwwaliyyah] in Every Age and Aeon. The Source is One. The One Who said "Observe the Ten Commandments", the One Who said : "If they smite you on the right cheek turn the left" The One Who said : Qur'an 008.065 PICKTHAL: O Prophet! EXHORT THE BELIEVERS TO FIGHT. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence. SHAKIR: O Prophet! URGE THE BELIEVERS TO WAR; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.*** All the above the Source is One. That Source's Intentions are to transform, guide, rectify, chasten, regenerate humanity in every age. [I hope you are following me so far :)] BUT clearly these teachings from the Primal Source [from that Mashiyyat al-awwaliyyah ] which Mark Foster also made reference too are not empirically or literally the same. Why do I say they are not EMPIRICALLY THE SAME? Because clearly observe the SPREAD OF ISLAM It reached Damascus, Byzantium Persia Egypt within a few decades with armies and swords and the Book [or that which was recited of the Book] because the Uthman Recension of the Holy Qur'an took place after some time LONG AFTER THESE battles were fought and won. Now is this empirically the same as the spread of Christianity in its first three hundred years or the spread of the Bahai Faith? There was something different. Now I would say it was the Will of God [more or less] that the spread of Islam be in that way. Why the more or less? Because I do believe the Primacy of the Imam 'Ali was not recognized universally and remained unimplemented [the Imam 'Ali was chosen as the Fourth Caliph]...and that had enormous consequences in its own right dearest Gilberto. But in this Dispensation Baha'u'llah [the Primal Will of God] says Do not Spread My Teachings with the Sword. Give us THIS DAY OUR DAILY BREAD [each Day a NEW BREAD] http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/slh/haykal.html Please be patient with me dear Gilberto With all my affection Salaam and warmest greetings **** http://www.bahai-library.com/writings/bahaullah/slh/haykal.html 212 It followeth, therefore, that rendering assistance unto God, in this day, doth not and shall never consist in contending or disputing with any soul; nay rather, what is preferable in the sight of God is that the cities of men's hearts, which are ruled by the hosts of self and passion, should be subdued by the sword of utterance, of wisdom and of understanding. Thus, whoso seeketh to assist God must, before all else, conquer, with the sword of inner meaning and explanation, the city of his own heart and guard it from the remembrance of all save God, and only then set out to subdue the cities of the hearts of others. 213 Such is the true meaning of rendering assistance unto God. Sedition hath never been pleasing unto God, nor were the acts committed in the past by certain foolish ones acceptable in His sight. Know ye that to be killed in the path of His good pleasure is better for you than to kill. The beloved of the Lord must, in this day, behave in such wise amidst His servants that they may by their very deeds and actions guide all men unto the paradise of the All-Glorious. __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
