Hi, Gilberto, At 08:55 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: >>I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Even with the few thelemites I've >>communicated with, I wasn't sure if they were "realists" when it came to >>their own beliefs. Are you saying it is plausible that Crowley really did >>have some kind of spiritual experience with an entity which led him to write >>down his various "scriptures" and told him about the beginning of the Age of >>Horus and led him to get into all this sex magick?<<
I don't know if he had any spiritual communications. However, Thelema, like most systems, strikes me as internally consistent. What I was saying is that, were I not a Baha'i, I would be comfortable being a Thelemite. Crowley's views have always appealed to my sensibilities. (Sex magick is not emphasized Thelema - at least not as it is generally understood. The only time when sex magick is even discussed is in the tenth degree initiation, which most Thelemites in the Ordo Templi Orientis never attain.) >>I mean, have you heard the anatomical interpretations of the mouth of Isis >>and the eye of Horus are? And in the Gnostic Mass (at least in some of the >>groups who look to Crowley) do you know what some of the ingredients are in >>the "body and blood" are? Ick!<< Yes, but Crowley regarded it as mythopoeia. >>But I have this visceral reaction to the Crowley stuff as just being wrong.<< Most people would probably agree with you. ;-) Of course, I am not defending Thelema. I am only saying that the myth system he created appeals to me. >>Is it really a sincere spiritual path or is it just an excuse to play dress >>up and have orgies?<< With a reasonable degree of certainty, I can say that there are no orgies in Thelema - at least not in the Ordo Templi Orientis (can't speak for the other Thelemite organizations). Anyone who attempted to have an orgy, and connect it with the OTO, would be kicked out. >>I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there >>actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more >>prophets are coming.<< Yes >>In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting >>into the Catholic Church.<< It was already well established within Roman Catholicism in the 1970s. My Ph.D. dissertation was on the American pentecostal movement, including the charismatics. Almost no pentecostals or charismatics (even among the unconventional Weirwillites) would argue that the biblical canon has been extended. Instead, they would say that continuing prophecy, tongues, interpretations of tongues, words of knowledge, and words of wisdom function within a "biblical" context to clarify and apply the scriptures. The pre-pentecostal Catholic Apostolic and New Apostolic churches, like a few other Christian churches and sects, have instituted various offices, including prophets. However, those prophets are expected to apply, not to add to, the "Bible," as they understood it. >>And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and >>visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The >>messages from Fatima would be a good example).<< Yes, but they are acting, and "revealing," within the framework of established Roman Catholic dogma. It is up to the Papacy whether to accept the legitimacy of a particular vision or series of visions. >>And similarly in Islam, although the Wahabis might try to paint a different >>picture, it seems to me that orthodox traditional "mainstream" Islam also has >>a concept of awliya who also can experience kashf and ilham and play a >>charismatic role in the world.<< Aren't those revelations expected to conform to the Qur'an? >>(Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?)<< There have been people like that. I knew one personally (the late Rob Pasca). He was a good friend of mine (from Long Island) and one of the most fascinating persons I have ever known. However, he was repeatedly cautioned by Baha'i institutions not to represent his understandings as related to the Baha'i Faith. Individual inspirations have no authority in a Baha'i context. >>It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are >>saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to >>individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way >>of doing that has ended.<< Most branches of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would reject additions to their respective scriptures (the Qur'an, the Christian Bible, and the Tanakh). So does the Baha'i Faith, but we accept the possibility of further scriptures in later Dispensations. >>But then is the Bahai faith one more religion next to the rest which appeals >>to a certain kind of mind? Or are you that Bahais necessarily have that >>universal perceptive power?<< My understanding is that `Abdu'l-Baha was making a similar point to the Bab. He was referring to the intended universal acceptance of a religion in a particular Dispensation. >>I didn't realize that any of them were big on missionary activity. I'm not >>saying you are wrong but the little I've read suggested the opposite.<< Here is an interesting story: http://www.post-gazette.com/World/20030107orthodox0107p5.asp >>I'm not sure I would have included them in the Hebrew Israelites.<< Why not? >>I think the Nubian Islamic Hebrews used to be the Ansars. So they were led by >>Dr. York and believed in the lastest Mahdi in the Sudan.<< Yes, and York claimed to have come up with the supposed "nineteen" (wahid) formula before Rashad Khalifa. (If I were either of them, I wouldn't be bragging about it!) >>I've read a bunch about them and have talked to some in Detroit the past >>year. They seemed really loose and syncretic in some ways. Accepting the >>Quran but also the deity of Christ. Mixing stuff about UFOs and things. The >>latest I've heard about them they have a compound somewhere in the South and >>are building pyramids.<< I have four of their books where they discuss those ideas. >>When I think of Hebrew Israelites they generally are less syncretic. They >>follow the Tanakh in some way and I think many recognize Jesus as the >>Messiah. I think there are different groups but the most famous one was from >>the southside of Chicago and moved to Demona Israel many years ago to set up >>a community there.<< I have a page of links to some related sites. Hopefully, most of them will still work: http://links.religionsnet.com/blackhebrews.html There are many groups of Black Muslims and Hebrew Israelities. (And I would include the Nubians.) All of them can be traced back to Noble Drew Ali or Farad Muhammad. >>Yeah, they used to have a show on tv I would watch when I was younger.<< Me, too. It was called "The World Tomorrow," and it was originally hosted by Herbert W. Armstrong. After he became ill, his son, Garner Ted, took it over. Later, Garner Ted was excommunicated (because of his alleged sexual proclivities), and he started the Church of God International. It is the oldest of the churches which broke away from the Worldwide Church of God. >>And it's weird when I think about it... it wasn't until relatively recently >>that it clicked for me that they were making these odd racial claims in terms >>of world history. I think they probably downplayed it some on their tv show >>(or I was just too young to pick up on it totally)<< Yes, and they strongly discourage inter-racial marriage. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
