Hi, Gilberto, At 10:02 AM 1/1/2005, you wrote: >>But isn't that kind of "continuity" still very different from what Bahais are >>asserting. That's what I was trying to get across earlier.<<
Yes, it is different. I mentioned it as an example of one of the "tendencies" I see in many of the religions (as I define that term) - with exclusivism (including both fundamentalism and sectarianism) on one side and pluralism (including both inclusivism and universalism) on the other. (I will suggest a third category under pluralism further on down.) The Baha'i approach to knowledge and authority is, to my understanding, inclusivism. However, perennialism would be a example of universalism. I would also place the view presented by the United Church of Christ on its Still Speaking under the pluralism category. When I asked the folks working with that site to clarify their position, here was their response: "To affirm that 'God is still speaking' recognizes that for divine guidance for our lives today we are not dependent only on the words of the Bible, written centuries ago. God's present communication is available to those in any age who seek God's guidance. The quote from Gracie Allen, 'Never place a period where God has placed a comma,' emphasizes the unfinished and ongoing character of God's communication. UCC leaders often cite a similar quotation from John Robinson, a leader in the Congregational tradition in England at the time the first colonists were leaving for America: 'God has yet more truth to break forth from his word.'" >>Muslims and Christians are still saying God will continue to be involved in >>the world. Through the Holy Spirit, through "prophets" through sufi shaykhs, >>through mujaddids, through qutbs (the title not the individual) etc.<< The view advocated by the United Church of Christ, which would probably agree with those of many members of so-called liberal religious organizations (Disciples of Christ, Church of the Brethren, Friends General Conference, Unitarian Universalist Association, etc.), is a bit different than either inclusivism or universalism. I might add a third category under the pluralism construct: religious humanism. >>And I'm not sure I would say that the Bahai kind of continuity isn't >>appealing. It's more that I don't see any reason why it should be true.<< Yes, of course. I find Meher Baba to be appealing, but I don't accept the legitimacy of his claim to avatarhood. >>I guess I would describe it differently. The various religions are usually >>diverse enough within themselves to manifest the various responses that you >>are implying above. So in each religion some people will lean towards >>relativism, and historical perspectives, but you also have people who are >>sectarian, and fundamentalists. Even in the Bahai faith.<< Generally speaking, when I use the term "religions," I am not speaking of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. I am referring to the different Islams, Christianities, Judaisms, and Baha'i faiths. (So, by "Baha'i faiths" I mean categories, sometimes groups, of Baha'is who follow different perspectives, some quite alien to one another.) >>I'm not sure why you would do that. At least folks like Guenon and Schuon, I >>don't think that they are saying that anything goes. (That's actually another >>side which appeals to me)<< No, they are not. Neither do Baha'is. However, for reasons I discussed (and elaborate below), I would still place traditionalism, like other varieties of perennialism, under universalism. >>They are broad-minded enough to realize that the Truth has been spoken in >>more than one way at more than one time, in more than one place, by more than >>one prophet. But at the same time it doesn't have to degrade into to >>borderless wishy-washy mush where there are no limits.Perhaps this is mainly >>true of the Traditionalists.<< However, an essentialistic (Platonic) understanding of "truth" still trumps authority. In the Baha'i Faith, to my understanding, the reverse is true. The repetition of "eternal truths" in each Dispensation is based on God's authority. I presume He could change the rules if He desired. >>I think "adding to the canon" is a little beside the point. Catholics don't >>"add to the canon" either but many accept the the messages from Fatima. It's >>not just "personal revelation" in the sense of telling someone where they >>lost their car keys or something.<< There are different Roman Catholicisms (perspectives). However, the official view of the Papacy is that these personal revelations are subject to the authority of the church. For instance: "In this context, it now becomes possible to understand rightly the concept of 'private revelation', which refers to all the visions and revelations which have taken place since the completion of the New Testament. This is the category to which we must assign the message of Fatima. In this respect, let us listen once again to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 'Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private' revelations", some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church....'" http://tinyurl.com/7r4b >>There are comments in there on world events. Seventh Day Adventists have >>Ellen G. White. The Mormons have Joseph Smith. Other churches have >>"inspired", highly thought of, charismatic leaders.<< Christian Science, Mormonism, Spiritualism, Seventh Day Adventism, and Unificationism are, to varying degrees, examples of pluralist religions. However, there is a ongoing debate among Seventh Day Adventists as to whether Ellen G. White's works, such as _The Great Controversy_ and _Steps to Christ_, should have any authority. >>But it seems more like an endtimes prophecy which hasn't been fulfilled yet.<< Many Protestants believe it was fulfilled in Acts 2. *All* full preterists believe it was fulfilled before 70AD. >>Nevertheless, the Bahai faith, Islam and Christianity all are open to the >>possibility of further "special people from God" in the future. Muslims >>specifically rule out a certain kind (prophets in the Islamic definition) but >>are open to other kinds.<< However, for most Muslims, ruling out further Prophets has implications. All reformers are expected to operate within the framework of the Qur'an, Sunna, etc. and the common understanding of khatam al-nabiyyin. It is one of the reasons Baha'is and Qadiani Ahmadis have had such trouble. In other words, there are certain authority structures which are generally regarded as inviolable. >>While on the other hands Bahais are open to certain kinds but are >>(theoretically or practically) reluctant to accept others (a second guardian, >>Manifestation which has come too soon, etc.)<< Yes, but a belief in the relativity of truth (progressive revelation - even within Dispensations) puts limits on any possible tendencies to exclusivism. (I should add that the concept of religious relativity is not understood similarly among all Baha'is.) >>In Islam, especially among Sufis if you think about concepts like the Perfect >>Man (which Susan associated with the Manifestation) or the Qutb, in a certain >>sense Muslims might even recognize new Manifestations. The only question is >>whether the Shariah has been abrogated or not.<< Wouldn't they more likely be seen as reformers, as, for instance, the Lahori Ahmadis understand the concept? >>I hope you had fun.<< Aside from the usual disagreements I had with my friend. Our associations tend to be rather volatile. However, honestly, it has been difficult for me to have much fun given the continuing catastrophe in South Asia. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
