On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 21:44:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, > At 03:54 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote: > >>Ok. I guess I would emphasize that such groups are not saying that God is > >>silent. And so it is not clear exactly how Bahais are saying that they are > >>different.<<
Mark: > One of the things which appealed to me about the Baha'i Faith, Eckankar, the > Meher Baba movement, etc. is the belief in a (conceivably) timeless > succession future persons who would have the same authority as Christ, > Muhammad, etc. Gilberto: Do you have any insight as to why that might be appealing? Personally, I don't think the religion is so much about authority or that individual anyway. I like religions more based on principles, like Taoism and Buddhism, and I think it probably shows up in how I see the prophetic religions as well. That's probably why Perennialism appeals to me. The message is more important than the messenger. There are timeless principles which are more fundamental than a timeless sequence of persons. Gilberto:: > >>The mainstream orthodox (at least not uncommon) view in Islam AND > >>Christianity is that God still speaks to mankind in various ways. That > >>doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry should be aknowledged as the > >>next prophet.<< Mark: > No, but we believe that there *will * be future Prophets. I understand that. Bahais say there will be future prophets. Muslims say there won't be future prophets. Christians seem really open to the idea that there will be future "prophets" (Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.) But maybe not figures of the magnitude or importance of Jesus. So in principle perhaps the Bahai faith most clearly states that future prophets will be coming. But I suspect that Muslims and Christians are probably more open to the continuing presence of lesser charismatic individuals who can serve as guides. People in the church office of "prophet", sufi shaykhs, etc. > What is your understanding of khatam? > It seems to mean last. And even though there are a few example in Arabic literature of where it doesn't mean last. The hadith on the subject of the finality of prophethood are pretty clear. [Hebrew Isralities/Hebrew Christians] > >>It seems to me that there are alot of groups which are Black, Bible Based, > >>which really center on Follow the commandments of God [in the Torah]. They > >>seem to be following a basically conservative impulse. Saying the other > >>churches and organizations have lost their way, let themselves be > >>influenced by paganism, western culture, etc. while they want to go back to > >>an older way of life, following the Torah, adopting Hebrew names, > >>identifying themselves with God's people, or the Israelites, etc.<< Mark: > Some of these groups accept Elijah Muhammad's Yakub mythology. Gilberto: Now I've totally lost track of which groups we are talking about. I think out of the varied and distinct African-American religious movements I have the impression that there is one constellation of them which naturally hangs together. The Bible-based groups, who try to follow the commandments of the Torah. When you said "Hebrew Christian": I thought that's what you were refering to (although perhaps without implying any particular racial component). Many of these groups will say that the original Jews were Black and they identify the children of Israel with African-Americans (or Blacks in the Americas). Many of these groups call themselves "Hebrew Israelites" Now, although there are some similarities between the above groups and the followers of Elijah Muhammad (the various incarnations of the Nation of Islam, along with the Five Percenters) and also the followers of Malachi Z. York, I see them as still being distinct. Especially since these later groups aren't claiming to follow the Torah and generally aren't claiming to be the children of Israel. And they bring in the Quran and other elements into their ideology. Mark: In my Social Problems classes, I refer to this mythology as a kind of "counter-racism." I see it as an ideology designed to attack the view, held by some factions of the KKK movement, that Blacks were the progeny of Jews and apes or the Mormon teaching that Blacks are descendents of the cursed Hamites (forgiven in 1967, I believe). Gilberto: That could be true. But I hope you see that there is more to the Nation than that. I've known of people who were "card-carrying" members of the nation but who weren't necessarily literalists when it came to the doctrine or mythology. There are positive aspects of it as well. Gilberto: > >>As far as I can tell Malachi Z. York doesn't really focus on those things, > >>incorporating Islamic elements, Pharonic elements, UFOs and plenty of other > >>non-Biblical material. Apart from the similarity of names, I'm not > >>convinced that the affinity with the other groups is all that deep.<< Mark: > There is evidence that Fard Muhammad had some contact with York. Gilberto: Ok but neither of them are Hebrew Israelites. Although one interesting aspect to this is that there seems to be alot of contraversy over who Fard actually was and what happened to him after he disappeared. One theory I've heard is that he was actually the same person as Arnold Ford who was prominent in the Black Jewish movement! This doesn't talk about that theory but other aspects of these various groups and shows that Dr. York's movement is more Pseudo-Islamic than "Israelite" http://forums.gawaher.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3836.html But a paper which does mention the Ford/Fard connection in passing is: http://answering-islam.org.uk/NoI/noi1.html Peace Gilberto __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
