Dear John, Your previous post was edited in an odd way. Certain comments were left out and I think it was a little unclear what arguments/comments were being responded to. I'll try to clarify.
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 06:59:03 -0800 (PST), John Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "We did not leave anything out of this Book, then all will be gathered > before their Lord [for judgement]. (Qur'an 6:38)" [Then you had claimed this verse "supports the stations of the Bab and Bahaullah"] > G: I don't think it gives positive support, they [the Bab and Bahaullah] > aren't > even mentioned or implied. [...] All I'm saying is that the particular > passage in > the Quran doesn't say that. [Then you had asked me about whether there were Bible verses refering to Muhammad. And I had suggested that this was affirmed in the Bahai writings] > > M: The Christian-Islam dialogue perfectly parallels this phenomenon. The > Bible does not directly name Muhammad as the 'Comforter' to the Christian's > satisfaction. It is the Prophet Muhammad's life and Revelation that first > prove who he is. After the proof for Muhammad is solidified based on his > own merits, it is clear as Aquafina to the Muslim that the 'Comforter' is a > reference to Muhammad. [This "yes" was to an earlier comment (When you rhetorically asked if there were references to Muhammad in the Bible), not to the above] > Gilberto: Yes. I actually thought the Bahai writings agreed on this point. > Don't the Bahai writings affirm that Muhammad is the Comforter promised by > Jesus and/or the Prophet Like Unto Moses mentioned in Deuteronomy? > M: The Baha'i writings do agree that the 'Comforter' is Muhammad. But the > Christians do not agree that Muhammad is the Comforter. The Christians are > obviously mistaken. --- Similarly, although the Baha'i Writings say that > the Lord of Qur'an 6:28 is Baha'u'llah, Muslims do not agree. Do you see > that history is repeating itself? At least from my perspective, it feels like there is an aspect of this which isn't being appreciated. There are ALOT of religions in the world. Even today, there are many different groups claiming to be led by the mahdi or his successors, or the second coming of christ, or the latest installation of God's religion. From the Moonies, to the Branch Davidians, to the Matreya followers, to the Ahmadiya, or the Ansarullah, or the Nation of Islam, or the Cao Dai people etc. They all have at least a certain minimal amount of plausibility or else they wouldn't attract any followers. From your perspective, the Bab and Bahaullah are obviously the real thing but from my perspective there are alot of people making similar claims and they all can't be true. So you seem to think that accepting the Bahai faith is just a simple matter of saying "yes" to God. But from my perspective that's not it at all. "Yes" to one thing on some level implies "no" to the other mutually exclusive things. And I would suggest that Bahais don't seem to be very worried about all those other figures they are implicitly saying "no" to. > > G: I agree that people aren't always prepared to hear what God is saying. > that is true. But what I'm saying is that those truths actually *are* in the > Quran in some form. It's not left out. In particular, because the Quran > itself says "We did not leave anything out of this Book"... Firstly I don't > know of any Christians who have made this same argument with regard to > Islam. There are many arguments I've heard from Christians against Islam > (usually involving slandering Muhammad or Islamic teachings somehow) but > I've never heard the above. Secondly, the argument I"m making doesn't say > to reject future religious figures but just that they are unnecessary. > M: Let me lay it out for you graphically, so you can see where I am coming > from, that you are making the same exact arguments against Baha'u'llah that > Christians make against Prophet Muhammad. G: You may this is strange but I don't think I've really been making arguments *against* Bahaullah. I don't think I've slandered him, said bad things about him, in any way. (If I have, please point it out to me so that if you are offended I can apologize) G: What I think I have been doing is arguing against what seems to me Bahai belief in the incompleteness, insufficiency and inferiority of Islam. > Christian belief based on Christian Holy Text--> 'I am the way, the truth, > and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.' > Christian conclusion--> Muhammad is wrong because there is no need for > anyone after Christ. > Muslim belief based on Muslim Holy Text (Qur'an) --> 'We did not leave > anything out of this Book'. > Muslim conclusion --> Baha'u'llah is wrong because there is no need for > another book after Qur'an. Gilberto: [Quran 2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. If a well-intentioned monotheistic Christian had trouble seeing past the stereotypes and prejudices of their background to recognizing Muhammad and said Christianity was a sufficient guide for them, I would actually not object to that person as much as you seem to think. There is a Presbyterian pastor at a Church near my house. I had an interesting conversation with him where he said that the Bible wasn't the inerrant word of God, where he insisted on the humanity of Christ (and blamed the incarnation doctrine for all sorts of problems in Christianity), and where he spoke sympathetically about the situation of a local Muslim figure who was imprisoned without charges in the wake of 9/11. It is totally possible that he is one of those who beleives in God, the last day, and does good. Maybe even Bahias can fit into the same category even if they aren't People of the Book. Also, you used two passages, one from the Quran and one from the Bible, which you think are comperable, and that is understandable for the sake of brevity, but I think the situation in the texts are fundamentally different. For example, the consensus on finality of prophethood among Muslims is higher than the consensus among Christians on any similar doctrine which would exclude Muhammad. And in fact, the Bible in numerous places talks about prophethood as a continuing reality after Jesus. (The New Testament itself is considered inspired but was written after Christ) And again, I haven't dwelt on whether or not Bahaullah is wrong, but focused on whether Islam is sufficient. > Gilberto: If the doctrine (that there is a "Days of the Lord" when each > Manifestation comes) is true, I don't think there is anything which would > make it hard to understand. > > M: You yourself prove that it is hard to understand, since someone as smart > as you cannot understand and accept it. :) Thanks. I think I understand it. I don't think I believe it. > I think that it is only the > Qur'anic emphasis on the Oneness of God, over the last 1000 years, that > makes this (that there is a "Days of the Lord" when each Manifestation > comes) come into correct perspective. Without the Qur'an, people would > think that the Manifestation is the incarnation of the Essence of God. > I'm not sure what you mean. Jews and unitarian Christians already knew that the prophets aren't God. > Gilberto: But you didn't explain anything. You just asserted it was true. > But if > you look at the Quran something which is supposed to happen during judgement > day is that they were supposed to be paid back for their deeds. So how did > that happen when the Bab came? And then again with Bahaullah? > > M: "Do men think when they say 'We believe' they shall be let alone and > not be put to proof?"[Qur'an 29:2.] People are always being tested. All the time. Every day. If you wanted to say that according to your metaphorical understanding judgement day is happening all the time with everyone, I actually don't think I would object. In fact just yesterday I was listening to a CD from a talk by a Shadhili teacher who was saying something similar... that Judgement Day can be thought of as an individual spiritual event. But then if Judgement Day happens all the time the coming of the Bab and Bahaullah isn't going to be special. Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
