Responding to this on my phone, so please excuse what I assume will be wonky formatting/quoting, but:
Derric, you say you hope your email didn't come across as shouting over the women or generalizing about them, but to me it did (and I say this not just to make you feel bad - I see you've already apologized in another thread - but to make a larger point). This is something women online In general, and women on this list especially, in my experience, face very often: a discussion about how we feel unwelcome and talked over is responded to by a man saying, "now, now, let's not be mean and hurt men's feelings" or "well that's not what I intended!"or all this argument won't fix anything!" When was the last time someone stepped into a conversation among men and said "Oh now boys, stop being so mean" or "you're hurting my feelings by talking about something that needs to be fixed, I insist you stop"? It's a condescending approach that is pretty much only deployed against women, this sense that fighting, or even disagreeing in a way that makes men feel like imperfect allies, is somehow unseemly and should be stopped. And again, I don't think you intended condescension, but the world condescends using those same terms/arguments. Though the words may be the same, "i stopped posting because men started shouting over me" and "i stopped posting because women started shouting over me" come from very different places and mean very different thing to the people involved in those sentences. Similarly, to respond to something someone else said, is NOT an equivalent experience for two women to be "vocal" in disagreement and a man to find it unattractive/annoying and thus tune it out, and for women to stop speaking because they feel that whenever they share their experiences, men jump in to say "yes but" and derail the conversation. One results in a man rolling his eyes; the other results in women literally feeling unsafe and unwelcome in a discussion space. Part of being a productive ally is a willingness to listen to and believe experiences people tell you about, even when hearing them feels like you're being confronted about something you didn't personally do. On Jun 23, 2014 11:47 AM, "Derric Atzrott" <datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > Moriel, > > > > I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was > feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I > intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense > to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me. > > > > “A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” > > > > This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing > that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on > reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly > together to do so. This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the > common things that I see men say towards or around women. I can understand > the frustration that might be being felt in that comment. I would love to > see more outspokenness myself even. The topic of the gender gap and the > way that women are treated online, in person, and on Wikimedia is a real > problem that a lot of people try to push under the rug. I think that the > majority of the men on this list though are here because we recognise it is > an issue and would like to do something about it. I felt that the comment > was worded in such a way that it alienated the people like myself who are > completely disturbed by the gender gap problem and are trying very hard to > try to understand and work on fixing it. To put it another way: “but that > stopped after a bunch of women joined and started hassling them about it. > SURPRISE!!” wouldn’t be appropriate on-wiki, and I don’t think that this > comment was appropriate here. > > > > “By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.” > > > > This comment also creates a hostile environment that I don’t think is > conducive to unsurprisingly is not conducive to resolving the hostile > environment problem. This reply reminded me of how shouting matches > begin. The thread is not an argument about which gender on-list makes the > place the most hostile. This comment made me just as uncomfortable as the > one made before it. > > > > My intention was to remind everyone that this is a list for discussion of > the gender gap and ways to fix it. It is not a list for shouting at each > other, which is what I felt was about to happen. I was trying to diffuse a > situation that in my mind could have gotten out of hand. It appears > instead I just managed to bugger things up, for which I apologise. > > > > “That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. > But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations.” > > > > I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original > email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my > intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution. > > > > “The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And > who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like > they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience.” > > > > Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > Derric Atzrott > > > > *From:* gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: > gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Moriel Schottlender > *Sent:* 23 June 2014 11:23 > *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the > participation of women within Wikimedia projects. > *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale > > > > Did this really just happen? > > > > Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not > participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle > suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is > completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the > point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email? > > > > We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem > differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and > annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a > problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out > why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two > arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better. > > > > Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this > mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in: > > > > In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. > > That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. > But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations. > > > > The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. > > > > And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel > like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience. > > > > > > Moriel > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < > datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > > >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: > >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > >> hassling them about it. > >> SURPRISE!! > > > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal > women. > > > > Nemo > > Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this > discussion is > going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all > here? > > From the Mailing list signup page: > "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation > of > women within Wikimedia projects. > > Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in > Wikipedia > and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is > provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to > collectively > address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused > on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a > starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of > women > and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, > Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage > you > to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this > regard matter to us and to the community." > > Thank you, > Derric Atzrott > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > > > > > -- > > No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. > > But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were > terribly inconvenienced during its transmission! > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
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