Derric,
> > I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was > feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I > intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense > to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me. > That's why I opted to being only slightly sarcastic and not come at you with a 10-tonne brick. I assumed you didn't mean offense, but that's why I wrote the paragraph about men having to take a step back; sometimes it's hard (especially in these types of lists) to notice how some comments come out, especially to a group that is already used to being marginalized, attacked and generalized just for speaking up. And even more especially when comments come up about pointing out *problems* with the way things currently work. Just food for thought. > > “A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!” > > > > This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing > that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on > reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly > together to do so. > That's part of the problem, though, Derric. You should understand that despite its sarcasm, this comment may actually have merrit -- which means it's pointing out a problem that this mailing list *is* the place to fix. We shouldn't avoid these, we should celebrate them and insist on trying to understand why they were said, and what is the underlying problem. The tone of that statement, too, is telling; it's showing the attitude of several women (on and off this mailing list) about participating in discussions about the gender gap. We need to move beyond our defensive nature as online posters, and try to read things as they are: Women are frustrated and many seemed to have lost their fire to argue these discussions. This didn't happen in a bubble, and it didn't happen because women don't care. Something made this happen, and while it isn't necessarily a single person (and definitely not meant to come as a personal attack at you, Derric) it *is* worth listening to, and explored into. > This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the common things that > I see men say towards or around women. I can understand the frustration > that might be being felt in that comment. I would love to see more > outspokenness myself even. The topic of the gender gap and the way that > women are treated online, in person, and on Wikimedia is a real problem > that a lot of people try to push under the rug. I think that the majority > of the men on this list though are here because we recognise it is an issue > and would like to do something about it. I felt that the comment was > worded in such a way that it alienated the people like myself who are > completely disturbed by the gender gap problem and are trying very hard to > try to understand and work on fixing it. To put it another way: “but that > stopped after a bunch of women joined and started hassling them about it. > SURPRISE!!” wouldn’t be appropriate on-wiki, and I don’t think that this > comment was appropriate here. > We would all love to see more outspokenness too. The fact it died out should mean something prevents it from prospering. I think that we can allow a bit of sarcastic frustration to live without shutting the speaker down in a list that is dedicated to the issue, when it is clearly alive and well (even if it shouldn't be) everywhere else from men confronting women. Reality isn't equal just yet, so the need to equally shoot down "both sides" that are sarcastic is noble, but somewhat against the point at the moment. I hope this email doesn’t fall into that sort of category. My original > email was intentionally non-confrontational, or at least that was my > intention. I may have done a poor job at the execution. > Conversations don't always need to be quiet and polite, especially since they're *not* either one of those on Wikipedia, which is what we're talking about here. Part of my comment about taking a step back was also to say that we should be quite a bit more lenient towards women-voices on this list, even if they are raising issues we don't like to delve into, or even if they're frustrated, because that's the only way we can make this list comfortable for women to actually discuss things *openly* here. Women are saturated with attitudes that contain tons of pre-judgment, aggression and defensiveness, almost everywhere online (as the original article points out too) -- it's no surprise that many women who've been active in these areas are feeling frustrated and don't *trust* the medium. We need to encourage those voices to come up, so we can discuss them openly, and these issues often involve very personal experiences that are very bad. Let me try to explain my point using a different topic (and I do hope I don't offend anyone with it) As a Caucasian person, I will be very careful of what judgments and comments (and tone) I put in my responses when I participate in a discussion about racism, because I am very well aware that I don't really know what it's like to live with racism against me throughout my life. In that aspect, I am very privileged, and while I want to change things very much, I know *I* won't have answers until I allow the people who experience this to feel comfortable speaking up. It should be the same in a group discussing the gender gap. Participating is important, but the voices of the ones who go through the harassment and attacks should be allowed -- and encouraged -- to be the focus of the discussion, and we should make it a point to make sure we delve into what was actually said despite the tone. Moriel > > “The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. And > who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like > they need to constantly defend the ‘reasons’ for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience.” > > > > Agreed. Also, for the record, Violet Blue is a great writer in my opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > Derric Atzrott > > > > *From:* gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: > gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On Behalf Of *Moriel Schottlender > *Sent:* 23 June 2014 11:23 > *To:* Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the > participation of women within Wikimedia projects. > *Subject:* Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale > > > > Did this really just happen? > > > > Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not > participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle > suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is > completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the > point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email? > > > > We're all here for the same goal, but some of us experience this problem > differently than others, and some appear to have gone frustrated and > annoyed and are not participating as much as they used to. That's a > problem. That's not something we should ignore. And we should figure out > why it happens (because it seemed to have happened to more than just two > arguing women) and how to make sure it is getting better. > > > > Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this > mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in: > > > > In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. > > That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. > But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so > unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should > take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound > like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or > generalizations. > > > > The discussions would be a lot more productive, and women may feel a lot > less frustrated -- and choose to share more of their experiences with the > rest of the group which might actually bring us to consider solutions. > > > > And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel > like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and > feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual > experience. > > > > > > Moriel > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Derric Atzrott < > datzr...@alizeepathology.com> wrote: > > >> Carol Moore dc, 23/06/2014 06:34: > >> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email > >> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started > >> hassling them about it. > >> SURPRISE!! > > > > By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading > > this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal > women. > > > > Nemo > > Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this > discussion is > going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all > here? > > From the Mailing list signup page: > "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the participation > of > women within Wikimedia projects. > > Wikimedia Foundation surveys show that the participation of women in > Wikipedia > and related projects are between 9 and 13 percent. This mailing list is > provided by the Wikimedia Foundation as a communication tool to > collectively > address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused > on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a > starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of > women > and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, > Wikimedia Commons, and the 'free knowledge movement'. We want to encourage > you > to engage with others in this effort. Your thoughts and opinions in this > regard matter to us and to the community." > > Thank you, > Derric Atzrott > > > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > > > > > -- > > No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. > > But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were > terribly inconvenienced during its transmission! > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > -- No trees were harmed in the creation of this post. But billions of electrons, photons, and electromagnetic waves were terribly inconvenienced during its transmission!
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