Hi Marie - After his last set of interactions with the mailing list, Derric has decided to leave it for the time being - so he won't receive your message unless you specifically send it to him. I honestly hope he chooses to return to the list in the future; after having some private conversations with him, I believe that his heart is very much in the right place, that he has a genuine desire to help improve the gendergap, and that his participation would likely benefit the list - and Wikimedia as a whole - more than the participation of many other men who have been on gendergap-l at one point or another (including quite recently.)
I don't know if you meant that you felt that my recent posts about changes in moderation seemed too topdown, or if you were referring to other things. If you were referring to my posts about moderation - the reason why the last few messages may seem top heavy is because in the past when we primarily tried to use an almost completely hands off approach, it led to a lot of women feeling unsafe participating in the list. We eventually transitioned to a more hands on approach than most other Wikimedia lists use, but one that was still significantly less hands-on than that used by many communities focusing on gender problems in tech and similar groups - and it lowered our the amount that the list felt unsafe to some participants to a degree, but still led to a lot of problems. After talking with Liz (the other currently active list moderator) and a number of list members in private about how to try to create a safer space, there was fairly broad agreement that more active moderation could help. It's definitely more of a top-down approach than has been taken here previously, but the approaches that have been taken here previously have failed significantly at letting the list fulfill its purpose - mostly because of situations that Carol and various other people have described in various places, where a bottoms-up approach to organization has resulted in large numbers of women either leaving the list, feeling uncomfortable contributing openly to it, or just tuning it out and not reading it. Strong moderation goes against my gut feeling in many cases, but if it has a chance of minimizing the number of times that potentially valuable contributors are forced off the list because of the unregulated behavior of other contributors, I think it's something worth trying. At the same time, we're not intending to set up an arbitrary set of community standards alone, but are intending to draft a basic version and then post it somewhere publicly for comment, discussion, and collaborative editing until we reach something that seems like it will be a useful document for the listserv. I guess it's also worth clarifying that although I sometimes voice my private opinions on an individual basis to the list, in the time that I have been a moderator there has never been a mod decision made that didn't have discussion between all active mods and their agreement that it was a worthwhile action to take. Decisions are usually announced by whichever mod feels like writing up a public message, but most mod decisions have represented the consensus of at least three mods (and we'll be announcing a new addition to the mod team shortly who I am incredibly glad volunteered to join us.) Best, Kevin Gorman On Sun, Jun 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Marie Earley <eir...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Since you've asked Derric... > > When you posted your message, "Can we please steer it back on topic and > remember why we are all here?" > - I was ready to steam in as I misinterpreted it. > > I thought that - as a response to Carol's comment that women get hassled > here and quit the list - you were saying, "We're not supposed to be talking > about women getting hassled, we're supposed to be talking about why women > leave." (I was going to say, "but they left precisely BECAUSE they were > being hassled".) > > Fortunately I read your next message in time not to steam in. > > Perhaps instead of: > > > "Nemo and Carol both, I really don't like the direction that this > discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why > we are all here?" > > ...something along the lines of, > > "I'm sure there are lots of examples people could give of poor behaviour > on this list. Since the purpose of this list is "...discussing solutions > and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve > gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and > reduce the impact of the gender gap within Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons, > and the 'free knowledge movement'." then perhaps we should discuss measures > that would tackle such poor behaviour." > > Also if you ask a white artist to paint a picture of a man they will most > likely paint a picture of a white man. If you ask a black artist to paint a > picture of a man they will most likely paint a picture of a black man. > Neither are being racist. It's worth remembering that men - no matter how > progressive or forward thinking - experience the world as men and women > experience the world as women. > > There's a well known workplace experiment where a group of men are put in > one room and given a task and a group of women are put in another room and > given the same task. The women invariably put everything on the coffee > table in front of them, lean forward, and work collaboratively. Meanwhile > in the men are choosing someone who will lead them, Mr Alpha Male then goes > and stands by the white board taking ideas from the room. Neither room is > being sexist, it is just how the respective genders like to work. > > I also can't help but notice that solutions being put forward seem to be > of the latter, male orientated 'from-the-top-down' variety. > > Marie > > > From: datzr...@alizeepathology.com > > To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 13:05:00 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [Gendergap] men on lists > > > > > Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of > meta thread for what just happened? I have further questions and things to > explain and get feedback on. I can start another thread if wanted. > > > > This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on > Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended. > Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but > apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email. I'd > like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list > can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself. I think a > polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those > goals. > > > > Thank you, > > Derric Atzrott > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Gendergap mailing list > > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > > _______________________________________________ > Gendergap mailing list > Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap > >
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