date:20050114

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:07:58 +0700, Firouz Anaraki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gilberto:
  You seem to be suggesting that Muslim countries shouldn't have democracy.
 
 On the opposite, I would love to see democracy everywhere with and without
 Muslim World.

You were speaking positively about Turkish secularism (in spite of the
fact that the Turkish military respresses Muslims). In alot of parts
in the Muslim world, if the governments became more democratic, then
that would mean more power for the Islamic parties but you've
commented about this as if it were a bad thing.

 Dear Gilberto, you did not answer my question in the previous email. What I
 asked is what kind of government a democratic Muslim country should have?
 Should the constitution of the country be based upon Quran and Islamic
 Shariah in this government that you would like to have?

I think that would be natural except when people say apply the
Shariah it should be done intelligently instead of stupidly. I think
that in alot of places (like in Afghanistan after the civil war)
people were so tired of crime and drugs and chaos that they really
wanted order. And so they just wanted some strong leaders to keep the
peace. And so people say they want the shariah and typically that
means cutting off the hands of theives and stoning adulterers. But the
shariah involves many different principles and rules in many areas of
life and the system needs to be implemented intelligently.

Peace

Gilberto

 

My people are hydroponic

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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:57:36 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 09:44 PM 1/13/2005, you wrote:
 What I would say is that religious exclusivism is one thing, and 
 finality is another. And finality in Islam is alot clearer, more 
 decisive, more emphasized than finality in Judaism or Christianity.
 
 You do not think that most conservative Christians believe that 

The fact that you have to add any kind of caveat (most conservative)
underlines the fact that there is a difference. For the overwhelming
majority of Muslims, not believing in the finality of Muhammad's
prophethood excludes one from Islam. The analagous claim is not true
for Christianity.

Mark:
Many pentecostals, whom I studied for my doctoral dissertation in the
early 80s, go to great pains to stress that their acceptance of
prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge, and
word of wisdom cannot replace, over-rule, or contradict the New
Testament.

Gilberto:
At this point, I really don't care. The fact that they even have
continuing prophecy and prophets is a significant difference from
Islam. That's all I've been saying.

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Re: Women in West/Islam

2005-01-14 Thread Firouz Anaraki

Gilberto:
You were speaking positively about Turkish secularism (in spite of the
fact that the Turkish military respresses Muslims). In alot of parts
in the Muslim world, if the governments became more democratic, then
that would mean more power for the Islamic parties but you've
commented about this as if it were a bad thing.
You started talking positively about Turkey first by saying that women have 
equal rights in Turkey, Egypt, and a few other countries. I just suggested 
the reason for justice and equal rights in Turkey was not due to Islam but 
to due military and its secular way of government.  But my opinion is that 
if real democracy exist in Muslim countries, Muslim people don't fall into 
traps of Islamic parties. The reason that in S.A.Saudis are joining 
extremist is because there is no democracy in SA. The same is true in 
Turkey. But the overall situation in Turkey is much better because of its 
secular way of government and leaving aside Shariah laws.

I think that would be natural except when people say apply the
Shariah it should be done intelligently instead of stupidly. I think
that in alot of places (like in Afghanistan after the civil war)
people were so tired of crime and drugs and chaos that they really
wanted order. And so they just wanted some strong leaders to keep the
peace. And so people say they want the shariah and typically that
means cutting off the hands of theives and stoning adulterers. But the
shariah involves many different principles and rules in many areas of
life and the system needs to be implemented intelligently.
As far as I know majority of people in Afghanistan are happier now than 
under Taliban. And I am not sure what you mean to implement Shariah laws 
intelligently. A law is a law, how in Shariah one's hand should not be cut 
if he steals something, In a few of countries with Shariah law, 9 years 
girls are being raped and then stoned to death for committing adultery. Can 
the minimum age for marriage of girls be changed under Shariah from 9 years 
old to say 15 years old? How about if a father decides to wed his young 9 
years old daughter to a rich man almost the same age as himself?
I believe there are so many laws in Shariah which are not compatible with 
democracy.

regards,
Firouz
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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

Gilberto,

At 02:44 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
The fact that you have to add any kind of caveat (most conservative) 
underlines the fact that there is a difference. For the overwhelming majority 
of Muslims, not believing in the finality of Muhammad's prophethood excludes 
one from Islam. The analagous claim is not true for Christianity.

I almost always qualify my statements. However, I am not aware of any 
self-defined conservative evangelical or fundamentalist Christian group, 
denomination, or sect which does not believe in the finality of Christ. To most 
of these Christians, Paul's epistles are not regarded as apart from Christ's 
authority.

Of course there are differences in particulars between many of the religions in 
the Christian network and many of those in the Islamic network. However, the 
concept of finality is commonly found in both (almost universally among 
self-defined fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals). NT references to prophets, 
pastors, etc. do not detract from the centricity of Christ in these 
conservative Christian denominations and sects.

At this point, I really don't care. The fact that they even have continuing 
prophecy and prophets is a significant difference from Islam. That's all I've 
been saying.

There are certainly many differences. However, I don't think that is one of 
them. The Isna Ashariyya Imams also made many prophecies. 

As I said before, aside from their common English translations, I see no 
connection between the a NT prophetes and a qur'anic nabii. 

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:51:30 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto,
 
 At 02:44 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
 The fact that you have to add any kind of caveat (most conservative) 
 underlines the fact that there is a difference. For the overwhelming 
 majority of Muslims, not believing in the finality of Muhammad's 
 prophethood excludes one from Islam. The analagous claim is not true for 
 Christianity.
 
 I almost always qualify my statements. However, I am not aware of any 
 self-defined conservative evangelical or fundamentalist Christian group, 
 denomination, or sect which does not believe in the finality of Christ. To 
 most of these Christians, Paul's epistles are not regarded as apart from 
 Christ's authority.

And 


 Of course there are differences in particulars between many of the religions 
 in the Christian network and many of those in the Islamic network. However, 
 the concept of finality is commonly found in both (almost universally among 
 self-defined fundamentalists and neo-evangelicals). NT references to 
 prophets, pastors, etc. do not detract from the centricity of Christ in these 
 conservative Christian denominations and sects.
 
 At this point, I really don't care. The fact that they even have continuing 
 prophecy and prophets is a significant difference from Islam. That's all 
 I've been saying.
 
 There are certainly many differences. However, I don't think that is one of 
 them. The Isna Ashariyya Imams also made many prophecies.
 
 As I said before, aside from their common English translations, I see no 
 connection between the a NT prophetes and a qur'anic nabii.
 
 With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
 Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman
 
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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

Gilberto,

You simply reposted my message.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Exclusive/Final

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:48:03 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:   G: Just to try to explain more why I think it is reasonable to draw a distinction between exclusiveness and final, and perhaps why I see it as a real difference (and why Bahais seem not to) I would say this. J: For the record, I see exclusiveness and finality as different from one another. I also believe that there are elements of exclusivity and finality in both Islam and Christianity. Christians, in my view, believe in Finality of the Bible.G: I would say that in Christianity the exclusiveness dominates the mix.I would also say there are also elements of exclusivity in the Bahaifaith (or at least the Bahai community)
J: I can't remember point of this theat anymore. But I thought it was to show that just as Christians believe in the Finality of the Bible and the Finality of Jesus, Muslims believe in the finality of Muhammad and the Qur'an. Yes, there are elements of exclusivity in all three religions, and more in some than in the other.
G: According to the Catholic Church (so the body representing mostChristians) there is a well developed concept of private revelation.So there are certain visionaries who have claimed to receive messagesfrom God, have passed along messages, and their sainthood has beencanonized by the Church.
J: Private revelation is not what I am talking about. I am talking about revelation applicable to all of humanity. No one can add to the Bible, nor is there a way for someone to come equal to Jesus (until the end of time). So, in the same way thatIslam permits the appearance of the Qur'an and the Prophet, Baha'i permits the appearance of Baha'u'llah and His writings.G: This is one significant way in which one could argue that for manyChristians prophethood isn't really final. Not all revelation isreally contained in the Bible.J: We are not talking about the same thing. If you were seeing it from my perspective, then you would expect the Bibleto have more chapters than Revelations, and Jesus would have come a few times before the end of time. (from a Christian perspective I mean, because of course the continuation of the Bible is the Qur'an and the reappearance of the Prophet is
 Muhammad).
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Re: Exclusive/Final

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:11:56 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 J:  I can't remember point of this theat anymore.  But I thought it was to
 show that just as Christians believe in the Finality of the Bible and the
 Finality of Jesus, Muslims believe in the finality of Muhammad and the
 Qur'an. 

Yes, I understand that this is what Bahais are trying to say. That
Christians have a concept of finality, but were wrong because Muhammad
came afterwards. So the point is to try to say that the Muslim concept
of finality is the same, and equally wrong, so it would make it more
plausible that Bahaullah could come.

And the point I'm making is that even from a Christian perspective,
they aren't claiming finality for themselves in the same way that
Muslims are. That in concrete ways they are actually open to future
revelation and future prophets and future messages.

Have you looked at the history of early Islam? The Christians and Jews
in Arabia were said to be expecting another prophet to come.


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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G: Yes, I understand that this is what Bahais are trying to say. ThatChristians have a concept of finality, but were wrong because Muhammadcame afterwards. So the point is to try to say that the Muslim conceptof finality is the same, and equally wrong, so it would make it moreplausible that Bahaullah could come.
J: Good summary of my personal view.
G: And the point I'm making is that even from a Christian perspective,they aren't claiming finality for themselves in the same way thatMuslims are. That in concrete ways they are actually open to futurerevelation and future prophets and future messages.
J: I think that in your statement above you are incorporating Islam thoughtinto Christianity. Try to understand Christianity from a Christian perspective, not an Islamic one. They will never universally accept a prophet who will also add to their Bible. There is no need because the Bible is a recounting of the life of Jesus, the only Saviour for man and the only Son of God. I agree that from a Muslim perspective, prophethood continues when looking at Christianity in hind-sight. That is exactly what Baha'is do to Islam. Looking atthe Qur'annow, the term Seal of the Prophetsis reborn with anew meaning.
G: Have you looked at the history of early Islam? The Christians and Jewsin Arabia were said to be expecting another prophet to come.
J: Excellent. And in the time of Baha'u'llah, Muslims were expecting the coming of the Mahdi, that's why there were so many claimantsat that time.
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Re: Luke 21:33 the Qur'an

2005-01-14 Thread Ronald Stephens

Dear Brent,

Your wrote: 

Ron, it's clear from your last word, where you have been reading. 

Just as critical thinking is an important part of examination of revealed 
religious truth, so is evaluation of what others write about religion.  Where 
exactly are they leading you?  To where they themselves are residing in 
relation to the Cause.  Is that where you want to be?  That's the best they can 
offer you

Sincerely, Brent, I would really like to know to whom or to what your referring 
to? I am not reading any other internet groups or lists, haven't for  long 
time, and no books that aren't official Baha'i books. I have no idea who you 
think I am being influenced by. 
Susan has often expressed thoughts tha tI am being influenced by others and 
this bothers me because, for bettter of for worse, my thoughts are my own 
thought.
\
\
As for idolatry; when I was a Crhistian, from about 1966-1994, considered that 
fundamentalist Christians idolized the Bible, and I often commented to them 
about this. So, you think I am influenced, but like it or not, some things are 
just true and different people will come up with them individually, it happens 
all the time. 


Please, though, tell me whop you think is influencing me so I can know. 
Seriously, it is very hard to know who one is supposed to avoid in this faith, 
since it is mostly by innuendo and no is named. 









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Re: Exclusive/Final

G: And the point I'm making is that even from a Christian perspective,they aren't claiming finality for themselves in the same way thatMuslims are. That in concrete ways they are actually open to futurerevelation and future prophets and future messages.
J: Gilberto, reading this again, I have some question to ask you. How are these Christian revelations and prophets different from the saints and Imams allowed in Islam?
Also, do you believe that Muhammad is a prophet equal to the 'prophet' mentioned in the Bible? If so, do you think that these prophets are inferior to Jesus as described in the Bible? If they ARE inferior to the Christian view to Jesus, why is that? Is it in your view due to corruption of portions of the Bible? If so, how do you know which portions of the Bible are in fact right and which are in fact wrong? Do you based this on whether or not they contradict the Qur'an?
Youhave also stated that revelation continues because the Bible was written by the apostles and not Jesus anyway, so the phrase "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word will never pass away" is written by the apostles and not really by Jesus. And following this logic, isn't the whole Bible the product of apostles and not Jesus, so none of it can be scripture, can it.
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Re: Exclusive/Final

Gilberto,

At 09:34 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
Just to try to explain  more why I think it is reasonable to draw a 
distinction between exclusiveness and final, and perhaps why I see it as a 
real difference (and why Bahais seem not to) I would say this.

I didn't say there weren't differences. I said almost the opposite. However, 
different religious systems can be exclusive (or inclusive or universal) 
without sharing all, or even most, of the same doctrines.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Exclusive/Final

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:58:44 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 G:  Yes, I understand that this is what Bahais are trying to say. That
 Christians have a concept of finality, but were wrong because Muhammad
 came afterwards. So the point is to try to say that the Muslim concept
 of finality is the same, and equally wrong, so it would make it more
 plausible that Bahaullah could come.
 
 J:  Good summary of my personal view.
 
 G:  And the point I'm making is that even from a Christian perspective,
 they aren't claiming finality for themselves in the same way that
 Muslims are. That in concrete ways they are actually open to future
 revelation and future prophets and future messages.
 
 J:  I think that in your statement above you are incorporating Islam thought
 into Christianity.  Try to understand Christianity from a Christian
 perspective, not an Islamic one.  They will never universally accept a
 prophet who will also add to their Bible. 

I think you are setting the bar high. I never said that Christians
expected a new world world prophet who would replace the Bible with a
new revelation. All I've been saying is that Islam (as understood by
the overwhelming majority to an extremely high degree of consensu)
teaches that prophethood ended with Muhammad (saaws). While
Christianity does NOT teach that prophethood ended with Jesus (saaws).
There are consistent reasonable plausible understandings of the word
prophet which make both those statements true at the same time.

Do you agree or disagree?

Peace

Gilberto


My people are hydroponic

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Religion and State

2005-01-14 Thread Smaneck

My
understanding is that the word siyasat in 19th century (and early 20th
century) Persian and Arabic means leadership and not politics as it is
commonly used. The 1943 translation of the eighth Ishraq in the Baha'i World
Faith reads:
"Administrative affair are all in charge of the House of Justice, and
devotional acts must be observed according as they are revealed in the
Book."
This is a translation by Ali Kuli Khan in 1906.

Dear Firouz,

And as you know, it has been consistently translated as 'matters'of state' or 'affairs of state' ever since. The term siyasat does come from a root meaning leadership, however, the term came to increasingly refer to statecraft well before the 19th century. I presume you are familiar with the Siyasat Name, by Nizamu'l-Mulk. It is the most famous Iranian book of statecraft and was written in the 11th century, I believe. In any case, particularly, it would not make much sense to translate amur siyasat as "administrative affairs' because the passage is talking about the use of reward and punishment. Without temporal power, the Houses of Justice aren't going to be able to administer much in the way of that.

Shoghi Effendi, in a letter written on his behalf, has his secretary write the following:

"Eventually, however, as you have rightly conceived it, the Movement will, as soon as it is fully developed and recognized, embrace both religious and political issues. In fact Bahá'u'lláh clearly states that affairs of state as well as religious questions are to be referred to the House of Justice into which the Assemblies of the Bahá'ís will eventually evolve." 30 November 1930. Cited in a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice and addressed to Sen McGlinn April 27, 1995.

Abdu'l-Baha also makes it perfectly clear that the Houses of Justice have jurisdiction over enacting secular [qanun] and civil law [akham-i madaniyyih] as well. *Qanun * or secular law, is the word used in the passage from the Will and Testament: "The House of Justice enacteth the law and the government enforceth it." The reference to the House of Justice making civil law can be found in 'Abdu' l-Bahá's Tablet on the the Universal House of Justice and the principles of jurisprudence which can be found here: http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/bayt.adl.usul.qadai.au.html

You wrote cited the following passage from the Lawh-i Dunya:

"According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly
revealed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are
committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the
Trustees of the House of Justice. ... ""

What Baha'u'llah is doing here is making the distinction between the legislative and executive functions. The same distinction is made by Abdu'l-Baha in the Will and Testament when He says "This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong ..."

Likewise there is a talk given by Abdu'l-Baha, recorded in Star of the West wherein He reiterates this point:

"Thee centre of the executive power is the government, and the legislative power lies in the hands of thoughtful and wise men. On the other hand, if these strong pillars and firm foundations are not complete and comprehensive, how can it be supposed that there will be safety and salvation for the nation? But as, in these latter days, such excellency is rare, the government and the whole body of the nation are in sore need of just and discerning directions. Thus it is of the utmost importance to establish an assembly of learned men, who, being proficient in the different sciences and capable of dealing with all the present and future requirements will settle the questions in accordance with forbearance and firmness. All the civic affairs and the legislation of material laws for the increasing needs of the enlightened humanity belong to the House of Justice. This the House of Justice, will be not only a body for the legislation of laws according to the spirit and requirement of the time, but a board of arbitration for the settlement of all disputes arising between peoples. When the Universal House of Justice is organized the members will do their utmost for the realization of greater cordiality and comity amongst the nations. The Laws of Bahá'u'lláh are the unchangeable, organic laws of the Universal House of Justice. They are the very foundation upon which the structure of additional legislation is built... Again, I repeat, the House of Justice, whether National or Universal, has only legislative power and not executive power...
( Star of the West, Vol. VII, No. 15, pp. 138-139)

In traditional Islamic thought, legislation is not really a legitimate function of government. Law is seen as something divinely revealed and

Re: Religion and State

Susan,

At the top of the document Jonah states "Note: the article "Church and State in the World Order of Baha'u'llah," by Sen McGlinn, also addresses these issues." Is this the document that the Universal House of Justice isrefuting?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My understanding is that the word siyasat in 19th century (and early 20th century) Persian and Arabic means leadership and not politics as it is commonly used. The 1943 translation of the eighth Ishraq in the Baha'i World Faith reads: "Administrative affair are all in charge of the House of Justice, and devotional acts must be observed according as they are revealed in the Book." This is a translation by Ali Kuli Khan in 1906. Dear Firouz, And as you know, it has been consistently translated as 'matters'of state' or 'affairs of state' ever since. The term siyasat does come from a root meaning leadership, however, the term came to increasingly refer to statecraft well before the 19th century. I presume you are familiar with the Siyasat Name, by Nizamu'l-Mulk. It is the mos!
 t famous
 Iranian book of statecraft and was written in the 11th century, I believe. In any case, particularly, it would not make much sense to translate amur siyasat as "administrative affairs' because the passage is talking about the use of reward and punishment. Without temporal power, the Houses of Justice aren't going to be able to administer much in the way of that. Shoghi Effendi, in a letter written on his behalf, has his secretary write the following: "Eventually, however, as you have rightly conceived it, the Movement will, as soon as it is fully developed and recognized, embrace both religious and political issues. In fact Bahá'u'lláh clearly states that affairs of state as well as religious questions are to be referred to the House of Justice into which the Assemblies of the Bahá'ís will eventually evolve." 30 November 1930. Cited in a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice and addressed to Sen McGlinn April 27, 1995. Abdu!
 'l-Baha
 also makes it perfectly clear that the Houses of Justice have jurisdiction over enacting secular [qanun] and civil law [akham-i madaniyyih] as well. *Qanun * or secular law, is the word used in the passage from the Will and Testament: "The House of Justice enacteth the law and the government enforceth it." The reference to the House of Justice making civil law can be found in 'Abdu' l-Bahá's Tablet on the the Universal House of Justice and the principles of jurisprudence which can be found here: http://bahai-library.com/provisionals/bayt.adl.usul.qadai.au.html You wrote cited the following passage from the Lawh-i Dunya: "According to the fundamental laws which We have formerly revealed in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and other Tablets, all affairs are committed to the care of just kings and presidents and of the Trustees of the House of Justice. ... "" What Baha'u'llah is doing here is making the distinction between the legisla!
 tive and
 executive functions. The same distinction is made by Abdu'l-Baha in the Will and Testament when He says "This House of Justice enacteth the laws and the government enforceth them. The legislative body must reinforce the executive, the executive must aid and assist the legislative body so that through the close union and harmony of these two forces, the foundation of fairness and justice may become firm and strong ..." Likewise there is a talk given by Abdu'l-Baha, recorded in Star of the West wherein He reiterates this point: "Thee centre of the executive power is the government, and the legislative power lies in the hands of thoughtful and wise men. On the other hand, if these strong pillars and firm foundations are not complete and comprehensive, how can it be supposed that there will be safety and salvation for the nation? But as, in these latter days, such excellency is rare, the government and the whole body of the nation are in sore need of just and di!
 scerning
 directions. Thus it is of the utmost importance to establish an assembly of learned men, who, being proficient in the different sciences and capable of dealing with all the present and future requirements will settle the questions in accordance with forbearance and firmness. All the civic affairs and the legislation of material laws for the increasing needs of the enlightened humanity belong to the House of Justice. This the House of Justice, will be not only a body for the legislation of laws according to the spirit and requirement of the time, but a board of arbitration for the settlement of all disputes arising between peoples. When the Universal House of Justice is organized the members will do their utmost for the realization of greater cordiality and comity amongst the nations. The Laws of Bahá'u'lláh are the unchangeable, organic laws of the Universal House of Justice. They are the very foundation upon which the structure of additional legislation is built... Again, !
 I repeat,
 the House of Justice, whether National or

Re: Religion and State

2005-01-14 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/14/2005 3:47:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
At the 
  top of the document Jonah states "Note: the article "Church and 
  State in the World Order of Baha'u'llah," by Sen McGlinn, also addresses 
  these issues." Is this the document that the Universal House of Justice 
  isrefuting?

Dear John, 

I think that article was written after Sen McGlinn received this letter but 
Sen had expressed these arguments earlier on the internet. When Sen subsequently 
wrote the World Centre asking for information regardingcertain 
documents on this topic, the House of Justice apparently took advantage of that 
opportunity to correcthiserrors. However, Sen never refers to this 
letter in any of his later articles on the same topic which argue the same 
position as he had before; a position which the House also disallows in the 
April 7, 1999letter where they write the following: 

"The effort, rather, has been to sow the seeds of doubt among believers 
about the Faith's teachings and institutions by appealing to unexamined 
prejudices that Bahá'ís may have unconsciously absorbed from non-Bahá'í society. 
In defiance of the clear interpretation of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and the Guardian, for 
example, Bahá'u'lláh's limiting of membership on the Universal House of Justice 
to men is misrepresented as merely a "temporary measure" subject to eventual 
revision if sufficient pressure is brought to bear. Similarly, Shoghi Effendi's 
explanation of Bahá'u'lláh's vision of the future Bahá'í World Commonwealth that 
will unite spiritual and civil authority is dismissed in favour of the assertion 
that the modern political concept of "separation of church and state" is somehow 
one that Bahá'u'lláh intended as a basic principle of the World Order He has 
founded." http://bahai-library.com/?file=compilation_issues_study_bahai.html

The latestincarnation ofSen's argument is the article: "Theocratic Assumptions in Bahá'í 
Literature" which was published in the book *Reason and 
Revelation*. You can read my review of that article here: http://theocracy.susanmaneck.com/

Because Sen has made the same argument in so many forms, which got 
published in a couple of places, and because those same articles 
weredistributed widely on the internet many of the friends have 
accepted this positionunaware that the House has refuted it. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:05:01 -0800 (PST), JS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Gilberto, 
  
 Now that we all seem to be in agreement all of a sudden, how do you read the
 following passage from the Kitab-i-Iqan that I quoted earlier?
  
 Beside this passage, there is yet another verse in the Gospel wherein He
 saith: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but My words shall not pass away.
 [Luke 21:33.]

Gilberto:
What do you mean by being in agreement all of a sudden? What was the
apparent disagreement? What is the apparent agreement?


Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Luke 21:33 the Qur'an

2005-01-14 Thread marylou9

-- Original Message --
From: Brent Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Date:  Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:17:32 -

Let's face it, we can discuss this stuff for centuries, but it all comes 
down to this. To anyone who reads the Bible the way we Baha'is read our 
Writings, then Islam is false. To anyone who reads the Quran the way we 
Baha'is read our Writings, it is clear that Baha'u'llah is false. It can be 
no other way. Believing in the literal inerrancy of religious writings 
guarantees
this. It is a form of Idolatry.

Ron, it's clear from your last word, where you have been reading.

Just as critical thinking is an important part of examination of revealed 
religious truth, so is evaluation of what others write about religion.  Where 
exactly are they leading you?  To where they themselves are residing in 
relation to the Cause.  Is that where you want to be?  That's the best they 
can offer you.

This is why Baha'u'llah repeatedly urges us to seek out those who have drunk 
from the cup of the Holy Spirit, and to avoid those who create doubt. The 
House has warned us about those former Baha'is who have a corrosive effect on 
our faith. You seem determined to cast that advice aside.

And as to how we should approach Baha'u'llah's word, the views of the Baha'is 
are not the standard.  The views of Baha'u'llah concerning His own Word are, 
in my view, the standard, and Bahá'u'lláh repeatedly affirms the absolute 
integrity of His Writings as the Word of God.
(The Universal House of Justice, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 226)

Best wishes,
Brent

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Arson

2005-01-14 Thread Sandra Chamberlain

Gilberto, you stated:   Also, since being burned alive is 
the punishment for arson in the
Bahai faith, I'm not sure on what grounds you are objecting to 
the above. 

Would you please provide your source for this statement - Book 
and page from Baha'i Sacred Scripture ?

Thank you!
Sandra 

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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

Gilberto,

At 02:55 PM 1/14/2005, you wrote:
I agree. This is one of the things which for me strongly indicates that 
Christianity is more open to future prophets coming than Islam.

Well, we don't seem to agree on this point. I still contend that there is no 
such thing as prophets. There is only what Paul had in mind in a particular 
case, what Muhammad had in mind in a particular case, and what one or more 
writers of the Tanakh had in mind in a particular case. 

Clearly, Paul was referring to something entirely different than Muhammad. 
Paul's epistles focused on his view of the routinization of charisma. A 
prophet, to Paul, was one who prophesied; and Paul believed, and desired, 
that all Christians should prophesy.

Paul was clearly not referring to Christians becoming Prophets in either the 
Islamic or Baha'i sense of the word. Prophesying, to Paul, was to be performed 
in the context of Christ's authority. 

Regardless of whether one equates Paul's view of a prophet with Muhammad's, to 
Paul, prophecy takes place in the context of the Gospel of Christ. Paul's 
christocentrism was unaffected. Unlike the qur'anic concept of prophecy, under 
Paul's system, no further book and law was revealed. IMO, that is the main 
difference.

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Re: Arson

Sandra,

Here is the quotation:

Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; 
should anyone deliberately take another's life, him also shall ye put to 
death.  
-- Baha'u'llah, Aqdas:  Notes, p.203

With regards, Mark A. Foster  15 Sites: http://markfoster.net
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman 


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Finality of the Bible

Gilberto,
I have a feeling that youare hesitating a bit about responding to my question about what you think about the verse I quoted from the Kitab-i-Iqan. So I assume that you still do not acknowledge the perspective purporting the finality of the Bible and the finality of Jesus. I would say that most Christian groups do firmly assert the finality of the Bible and the finality of Jesus. The emphasis that Christians make is thatthe Bible possessespowers that are not to be found in any other book to come.
1) Clearly, all portions of the Bible must be regarded as Sacred, and that rejection of even one word of the Bible is tantamount to rejection of all of it.
"Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever." (Psalm 119:160)
2) Another common belief is that the Bible is right about any and all the subjects that are addressed in it. This means that it is the *only* Book with this status, in the past and in the future.
"Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way" (Psalms 119:128; 98-100).
SomeChristians even think thatthe Bible is absolute instead of relative or objective based on this verse.
3) The following verses firmly establish the finality of the Bible. In addition, they imply that the Bible has the first and last word on everything. That the Bible is God's CHANGELESS word and has been revealed once and for all. In fact, the last verse even states that no other different Gospels are EVERto come.
"For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." (Psalm 119:89)
"He that rejected Me, and receiveth not My sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9)
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Falsifiability

2005-01-14 Thread Tim Nolan

Hi Gilberto,

The idea is that in order for a theory or a statement to be meaningful, it has to be falsifiable.If you can't really do that, 
so the argument goes, what you are saying ultimately has
no meaning or content

This criterion may useful in the field of science, which is
the process of observation, forming hypotheses,
then testing them by more observation. But in the realm
of spiritual reality, this principle is not always helpful.

For example, the existence of God is not falsifiable because
there are no conditions under which God would not exist.
The same could be said for the human soul. Thus, to say
God exists, or human beings have souls, is not falsifiable,
yet both statements have meaning.

Tim Nolan
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Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)

2005-01-14 Thread Tim Nolan

Dear Susan,

FirouzIslamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just accountable to God not to people.Susan Don't we say the same thing about own institutions? 
Yes, we do. But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate
based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah
or His successors. Can Islam make the analogous claim?

Tim Nolan
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Re: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:22:20 -0800 (PST), Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Susan,
  
 FirouzIslamic governments and Islamic parties say that they are just 
 accountable to God not to people.
 
 
 Susan Don't we say the same thing about own institutions? 
 Yes, we do.  But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate
 based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah
 or His successors.   Can Islam make the analogous claim?

But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made her
comment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heard
your accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would have
been misleading. I'm ok with the idea that western liberals like the
idea of a secular government and are going to have certain qualms
about Islamic governments, but if you criticize Islam and give the
impression that you would like to see secular governments, when in
reality you are just in favor of a different kind of theocracy, that
certain gives the impression of being evasive (at best).

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Finality of the Bible


Gilberto, I have a suggestion. How about you and I go into a Christian forum of *your* choosing (why not Catholicism), and wewill ask them whether they believein the Finality of the Bible in the same sense that you believe in the Finality of the Qur'an. Will you do that with me? 
Here are two quotes from the New Testament, not the Old Testament. (Again, I am not asking you how you understand the Bible from an Islamic perspective.I am asking you how Christians view Christianity from their own perspective.)
1) How do you understand the last sentence of this verse"If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9)
2) How do youunderstand "the same[word]shall judge him in the last day."
"He that rejected Me, and receiveth not My sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48)
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RE: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)

2005-01-14 Thread Susan Maneck


But the Baha'i institutions exist, and operate
based on the explicit, written statements of Baha'u'llah
or His successors.   Can Islam make the analogous claim?

Analogous, yes, but obviously not the same. But perhaps in the same since
that Christian claims to finality are analogous to Muslim claims. ;-}


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RE: Falsifiability

2005-01-14 Thread Susan Maneck


And one can start to suggest properties that
beings with souls have which might be verified or disproven.

And how would one establish a that these properties do indeed establish that
the being who possesses them has a soul? Would this be a falsifiable
criteria?

And Mark (correct me if I'm
wrong) seemed to suggesting that the Bahai writings might contain
factual errors but he would still believe in them and it was at that
point that I wondered what it could mean to believe in writings when
you don't actually believe that they are factually true.

It might mean that the scriptures aren't about whether there were six or
seven or a dog in the cave. ;-}

warmest, Susan


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Re: Accountability (was:RE: Women in West/Islam)



G: But in some ways the larger issue is that if Susan hadn't made hercomment and I hadn't read similar things elsewhere and I had heardyour accusation towards Islam for the first time, then it would havebeen misleading. I'm "ok" with the idea that western liberals like theidea of a secular government and are going to have certain qualmsabout Islamic governments, but if you criticize Islam and give theimpression that you would like to see secular governments, when inreality you are just in favor of a different kind of theocracy, thatcertain gives the impression of being evasive (at best).J: Baha'is really aren't bad people, trust me. The person you are refering to had incorrect information or a difference of opinion about the Baha'i teachings.
Read Susan's emails about the Baha'i view on theocracy, it is spelled out pretty clearly and in detail, including quotes for Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.
Let me summarize this key point from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi for clarification, if you don't have time to read them yourself (btw, my paraphrasing and cutting and pasting may be incorrect, but this is how I understood it, so forgive me if the cut and paste totally messes up the meaning of it):
1) Christianity and Islam"The Catholic Church and the Caliphate" were not directly sanctioned by Muhammad or by Christ. Therefore they are "not divinely given" and are considered to be "man-made". However, since they are "partly derived from the teachings of Christ and Muhammad", they are "in a sense theocracies." 
2) Baha'i Faith"The Baha'i theocracy, on the contrary, is both divinely ordained as a system and, of course, based on the teachings of the Prophet (Baha'u'llah) Himself."
What does Shoghi Effendi mean by saying that the Baha'i theocracy is (1) divinely ordained and (2) based on the teachings of Baha'u'llah? He is refering to specific verses from Baha'u'llah's writings (among others). As you already know, neither Christianity nor Islam has writings from the Bible nor the Qur'an that directly point to who has divine authority to guide or govern the people.
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RE: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]

2005-01-14 Thread Susan Maneck


I
think that it should be possible for us to come up with a reasonable
definition of prophet such that a good number of Christians will
allow for future prophets after Jesus but the typical Muslim will not
allow for future prophets after Muhammad.

Dear Gilberto,

Obviously if one wanted to come up with such a conclusion as was prepared to
ignore the fact that Paul and Muslims are talking about very different
things when the refer to prophets one could come to that conclusion. While
there might well be 'prophets' within the church they could not add anything
to scripture. But when a Muslim talks about prophets they usually mean one
who brings a Book. Christianity did not allow for that. The last passage of
the Book of Revelation, however misinterpreted, was understood by most
Christians to mean that nothing else could be added to scripture.
Furthermore, the guidance of the church through the Holy Spirit was thought
to make further revelations of this type unneccesary. Paul's statement in
Galatians, which has already been quoted,  was understood the same way. But
don't take our word for this. Ask the next five Christians you meet whether
they believe it is possible for God to send a prophet with a books to add to
the scripture and see what they say. They are in a better position to tell
us what they believe than you or I.



Not everyone was a prophet. Prophet is still a meaningful category.

Yes, it was a particular office within the church. But it has no bearing on
the station of prophethood in Islam which goes by that name.

Mark:
 Regardless of whether one equates Paul's view of a prophet with
Muhammad's, to Paul, prophecy takes place in the context of the Gospel of
Christ. Paul's christocentrism was unaffected.

Gilberto:
And what you are calling ethnocentrism I would probably call
exclusivism (not finality)

He said Christocentric, not ethnocentric. That's a very different thing.


That would be alot more convincing if Paul didn't write more of the
Bible than any other person, including Jesus.

That is really irrelevant to the question of whether or not Christianity
makes the same claims to exclusivity and finality as does Islam. Ultimately
no religion likes to be superceded. As the Qur'an says: And to you there
came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt
of the (Mission) for which he had come: At length, when he died, ye said:
'No messenger will Allah send after him.'

warmest, Susan





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From the Baha'i Library

2005-01-14 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

Dearest John Smith
Nothing, absolutely nothing can replace the perusal of the Iqan Itself but I
thought a brief review of Chris Buck's book may be helpful to you. Please
forgive my presumption in sharing it with you

 Well may it be claimed that of all the books revealed by the Author of
the Baha'i Revelation, this Book alone [the Kitab Iqan], by sweeping away
the age-long barriers that have so insurmountably separated the great
religions of the world, has laid down a broad and unassailable foundation
for the complete and permanent reconciliation of their followers. 
(Shoghi Effendi:  God Passes By, Page: 139)***

http://bahai-library.com/books/symbol.secret/
*** 

This claim [the claim of finality], consistently upheld by Islamic
orthodoxy, not only militates against the notion of prophetic continuity but
also hinders any attempt at the renovation of doctrine. No intellectual
current in the course of Islamic history-not even the Sufis' claim to
intuitive inspiration or the philosophers' rational exposition of the
fundamentals of the Islamic faith-has ever escaped this predicament. 15 

  Bahá'u'lláh overrides the obstacle of the Seal from several
directions. In so doing, he defines the designation as an attribute common
to all messengers of God. The concept of the Seal as Last is kept
intact, but Last indicates importance rather than temporality. Bahá'u'lláh
sets up his argument by citing a tradition in which Muhammad is reported to
have said, I am Jesus.16 Enlarging on the Quranic theme of the oneness of
the prophets, Bahá'u'lláh writes:
Hath not Muhammad, Himself, declared: I am all the Prophets.? Hath He not
said as We have already mentioned: I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.? Why
should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: I am the first Adam,
be incapable of saying also: I am the last Adam.? For even as He regarded
Himself to be the First of the Prophets-that is Adam-in like manner, the
Seal of the Prophets is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is
admittedly obvious that being the First of the Prophets, He likewise is
their Seal.17 

  Viewed in this light, they [the Prophets] are all but Messengers of
that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim:
I am the Seal of the Prophets, they verily utter but the truth, beyond the
faintest shadow of a doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one
spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the Manifestation of the
Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Seen and the
Hiddenall of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits
and eternal Essence of Essences.18 

  Having linked Quranic concepts of prophetic unity with this Quranic
distinction (Quran 33:40), a tenable leap in logic for Bahá'u'lláh was to
suggest that if the prophets share the same essence, they should also share
the same attributes, including that expressed by the title, Seal of the
Prophets. (Bahá'u'lláh does allow for distinctions in station and intensity
of revelation, however.) By the force of this argument, Jesus is fully equal
with the prophet Muhammad, since Jesus is considered the Seal of the
Prophets as well. The same is likewise the case with the prophet Adam and
the Patriarchs of yore: Behold, O concourse of the earth, Bahá'u'lláh
exclaims, the splendours of the End, revealed in the Manifestations of the
Beginning!

  In fine, Bahá'u'lláh applies Quranic concepts of the oneness of the
prophets to relativize the idea of the Seal of the Prophets. The accepted
notion of the Seal as meaning last is kept intact, but last indicates
authority rather than succession. Through an associative equivalence
grounded in the Qur'án's message of prophetic oneness, the Seal of the
Prophets distinguishes all the Messengers of God. In The Book of
Certitude, Bahá'u'lláh shows orthodox claims to Muhammad's ultimacy as
trading on notions of triumphalism to the exclusion of the Quranic concept
of prophetic unity. Bahá'u'lláh has used one Quranic doctrine as a
constraint on another. 

Bahá'u'lláh opens up a whole new line of interpretation by drawing a simple
Qur'anic  equation: The Qaim of Islamic tradition is the presence of God
in the Qur'án. Throughout The Book of Certitude, Bahá'u'lláh consistently
identifies the figure of the Qá'im with the Qur'anic  presence of God, in
which Gods presence (not essence) is incarnated in the person of an
eschatological fulfiller whose charisma is the numinosity of God. The latter
identification is not exclusive to the Qá'im for good reason, since it
equally applies to the messenger foretold by the Báb. 
... Just as Muhammad manifests the Will and Presence of the transcendent
Deity, so also must the Qur'anic  eschatological God be a mediated Deity.
According to Bahá'u'lláh, the Qur'án refers to this deputy of God in various
ways, ONE OF WHICH IS ITS CRYPTIC REFERENCES TO THE PRESENCE OF GOD:
Even as the Lord of being hath in His unerring Book, after

Re: Finality of the Bible

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:07:34 -0600, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 The largest Christian group, namely the Catholic Church clearly and
 explicitly says that individuals can receive private revelation. Some
 of these revelations have been written down. Some of these might even
 be highly regarded by many in the Catholic Church. The Message of
 Fatima would be a really good example.
 
 Dear Gilberto,
 
 But such private 'revelations' would never become part of scripture or even
 canon law 

Where did I claim they would?

 But in Islam, people who receive revelation (private or not)
 satisfy at least one definition of being a prophet. But Muhammad
 (saaws) is the last prophet so that sort of thing doesn't happen
 anymore in the Islamic perspective.
 
 Al-Ghazali held that Walis recieved the type of private revelations you are
 talking about.

What exactly did he say about them? And how do you know they are the same?

Peace

Gilberto

My people are hydroponic

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Re: Finality of the Bible

2005-01-14 Thread Smaneck





In a message dated 1/15/2005 1:15:33 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What 
  exactly did he say about them? And how do you know they are the 
  same?

I don't have the book with me right now. Have you never read "That which 
Delivers from Error"? It is a classic.

"And how do you know they are the same?"

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . 

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Re: exclusivity and finality in the Faith which PRECEDED Islam [John 14:6]