Re: RE: alcohol in meals
That is true[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My recollection is that alcohol is only gradually prohibited in the Qur'an itself. At first the Qur'an merely says there is good and bad in wine, but the bad exceeds the good. Then it says don't go to prayer drunk, something hard to do if you imbibe at all and pray five times a day. Afterwards the Qur'an prohibited wine categorically, perhaps because people weren't going to prayer. ;-}The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
Hi Susan, I have played Bingo, poker, etc. in family meetings (there are azar games)... In the other hand (azar games as recreation to earn a bit money ;-) Are you saying that we cannot play lottery anytime? Dear Hasan, No, I didn't say that. Lotteries are for charitable purposes. Even when they are run by the state they are usually to raise money for things like education. The distinction I'm making is between gambling for recreational purposes (which to my understanding is forbidden) and gambling as a part of charitable fund-raising (which for the time being the House is leaving to our own discretion.) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
Do you look at the intention of the gambler or the nature of the casino (or both? and how do they relate?) I mean, state lotteries are used to fund school systems but if you really wanted to fund a school system it would probably be more effective to make a direct donation yourself. People who play lottery tickets are hoping to win when they do so, not necessarily hoping to improve their local school system. -G On 8/4/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Susan, I have played Bingo, poker, etc. in family meetings (there are azar games)... In the other hand (azar games as recreation to earn a bit money ;-) Are you saying that we cannot play lottery anytime? Dear Hasan, No, I didn't say that. Lotteries are for charitable purposes. Even when they are run by the state they are usually to raise money for things like education. The distinction I'm making is between gambling for recreational purposes (which to my understanding is forbidden) and gambling as a part of charitable fund-raising (which for the time being the House is leaving to our own discretion.) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- There are no poets __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
I mean, state lotteries are used to fund school systems but if you really wanted to fund a school system it would probably be more effective to make a direct donation yourself. People who play lottery tickets are hoping to win when they do so, not necessarily hoping to improve their local school system. Dear Gilberto, I tend to agree with you and think state lotteries are a really bad idea. They amount to a tax on the poor for they prey upon their hopes. The House is not saying lotteries are okay, they are simply saying this is not something they are prepared to legislate on at the present time and are leaving to our own personal consciences. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
On 8/4/06, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mean, state lotteries are used to fund school systems but if you really wanted to fund a school system it would probably be more effective to make a direct donation yourself. People who play lottery tickets are hoping to win when they do so, not necessarily hoping to improve their local school system. Dear Gilberto, I tend to agree with you and think state lotteries are a really bad idea. Ironically, the fact the we can agree about something again suggests that today is a good day to buy lottery tickets...lol... -G The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals
Title: Re: RE: alcohol in meals
At 10:30 PM -0500 8/2/06, Hasan Elias wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:
don't get why recent
past Prophets as the Bb or Muhammad did not forbid it.
Huh? Muhammad and the Bab did forbid it.
What about Jesus, Moses or the other
Manifestations?
I think the answer is one of relative importance. At Their
time, at that point in the development of man, there were more
important issues to deal with.
Don C
--
-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
Very well so my friend. The verses I quoted were only in response to alcohol issue with respect to Muhammad etc. Other issues such as gambling, pig meat etc weren't the issue of discussion. Much love, MonderHasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I infer that gambling as source of baháís funds is forbidden (also gambling as an occupation is inadvisable), but I dont think it is completely forbidden for recreation purposes. "As far as individuals are concerned, we have carefully studied the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi on this point and it is apparent
that such subsidiary matters are not recorded in the Holy Texts. The Universal House of Justice is not prepared to decide at this time whether the purchase of lottery tickets should be permitted or prohibited." UHJ Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case.I think you'll find they did my friend..The Holy Quran, 2.219:
They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. The Holy Quran, 5.90: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. The Holy Quran, 5.91: Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then
abstain? Allahu Abha, Monder Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think is a malpractice for bahá'ís to eat a rum pudding (if he knows what is a rum pudding), but I don't see the problem to eat a meal where alcohol is vaporized and gone. I checked some web pages that indicate that alcohol vaporizes when boils or is putted to high degrees. Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case.Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Thanks Sandra and friends to answer. So, the alcohol doesn't vaporize? What about meals where (for example) a meat is cooked (boiled or fried) with alcohol? In my country, there are few typical plaits that uses a little bit of alcohol, and people (including bahá'ís) love to eat, and I think it is not a big deal.Sandra Huit [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:Is there any rational explanation of why bahá'ís cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes.There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universitiesin the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found thatdepending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol
is retainedin foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my file copyof it, but it was published in the Journal of the American DieteticAssociation. At one time the US Department of Agriculture published a tablethat showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc., containingingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps.- Sandra Huit The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals
On 8/2/06, Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Huh? Muhammad and the Bab did forbid it. What about Jesus, Moses or the other Manifestations? I won't comment on Jesus and Moses (as) but Judaism and Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy) certainly allow the conditional use of wine, even as a part of religious ceremonies. And according to those religions, these practices are based on the instructions of their founders. -G The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals
To the list in general and Gilberto in particular,I think the question as to why Jesus or Moses were mute on this particular question is tied up with the concept of "progressive revelation". This concept is not really acceptable to Islam in general because Islam believes that the Qur'an is perfect and uncorrectable over time.Since the Qur'an is considered to be the perfection off the Injeel and the Torah this raises question with why Jesus or Moses would allow such a practice.If one embraces the concept of progressive revelation the question is unimportant. Jesus and Moses taught as God willed and God willed that the instructions would change over time.Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/2/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: don't get why recent past Prophets as the Bb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Huh? Muhammad and the Bab did forbid it. What about Jesus, Moses or the other Manifestations?I won't comment on Jesus and Moses (as) but Judaism and Christianity(Catholicism, Orthodoxy) certainly allow the conditional use of wine,even as a part of religious ceremonies. And according to thosereligions, these practices are based on the instructions of theirfounders.-G
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals
Dear Scott, I don't think there necessarily is a contradiction between accepting the Qur'an as the perfection of the Tourat and the Injeel and 'progressive revelation', per se. Obviously to the Islamic community, progressive may have ended with the Dispensation of Muhammad, but it is relatively progressive nonetheless.Apologies, if I have misunderstood.Deepest regards, MonderScott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To the list in general and Gilberto in particular,I think the question as to why Jesus or Moses were mute on this particular question is tied up with the concept of "progressive revelation". This concept is
not really acceptable to Islam in general because Islam believes that the Qur'an is perfect and uncorrectable over time.Since the Qur'an is considered to be the perfection off the Injeel and the Torah this raises question with why Jesus or Moses would allow such a practice.If one embraces the concept of progressive revelation the question is unimportant. Jesus and Moses taught as God willed and God willed that the instructions would change over time.Regards, ScottGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/2/06, Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Huh? Muhammad
and the Bab did forbid it. What about Jesus, Moses or the other Manifestations?I won't comment on Jesus and Moses (as) but Judaism and Christianity(Catholicism, Orthodoxy) certainly allow the conditional use of wine,even as a part of religious ceremonies. And according to thosereligions, these practices are based on the instructions of theirfounders.-G The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals
Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Dear Scott, I don't think there necessarily is a contradiction between accepting the Qur'an as the perfection of the Tourat and the Injeel and 'progressive revelation', per se. Obviously to the Islamic community, progressive may have ended with the Dispensation of Muhammad, but it is relatively progressive nonetheless.Apologies, if I have misunderstood.Deepest regards, MonderI only meant tht there is the concept that the Tourat and the Injeel must be somehow inaccurate because the Prophets did not address alcohol in particular. Underlying much of Islam is the notion that the Qur'an corrects corruptions, rather than adds more detail. I am sorry if I made
myself unclear.Regards, Scott
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals
What about Jesus, Moses or the other Manifestations? Jesus and Moses did not. You have to keep in mind that in this time period water was not save to drink and people didn't know about boiling it. But wine was often mixed with water which disinfected it. Also, in those days it was not possible to preserve a lot of things without allowing them to ferment. Wine and beer contributing a good deal to people's caloric intake. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
I infer that gambling as source of bahá?ís funds is forbidden (also gambling as an occupation is inadvisable), but I don?t think it is completely forbidden for recreation purposes. As far as individuals are concerned, we have carefully studied the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi on this point and it is apparent that such subsidiary matters are not recorded in the Holy Texts. The Universal House of Justice is not prepared to decide at this time whether the purchase of lottery tickets should be permitted or prohibited. UHJ Dear Hasan, The exception being made here is not gambling for recreational purposes it is gambling for *charitiable* purposes. The House is saying while this shouldn't be done to raise Baha'i funds they are not prepared to prohibit Baha'is from participating in any such charitable fundraising at this time. So you can buy a raffle ticket to raise money for an orphanage, but you can't go to a gambling casino or play poker for money with your friends. warmest, Susan Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case. I think you'll find they did my friend.. The Holy Quran, 2.219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit. They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: What is beyond your needs. Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. The Holy Quran, 5.90: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. The Holy Quran, 5.91: Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? Allahu Abha, Monder Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think is a malpractice for bahá'ís to eat a rum pudding (if he knows what is a rum pudding), but I don't see the problem to eat a meal where alcohol is vaporized and gone. I checked some web pages that indicate that alcohol vaporizes when boils or is putted to high degrees. Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case. Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Thanks Sandra and friends to answer. So, the alcohol doesn't vaporize? What about meals where (for example) a meat is cooked (boiled or fried) with alcohol? In my country, there are few typical plaits that uses a little bit of alcohol, and people (including bahá'ís) love to eat, and I think it is not a big deal. Sandra Huit [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:Is there any rational explanation of why bahá'ís cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes. There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universitiesin the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found that depending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol is retainedin foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my file copy of it, but it was published in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association. At one time the US Department of Agriculture published a table that showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc., containingingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps. - Sandra Huit The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal
Re: RE: alcohol in meals
My recollection is that alcohol is only gradually prohibited in the Qur'an itself. At first the Qur'an merely says there is good and bad in wine, but the bad exceeds the good. Then it says don't go to prayer drunk, something hard to do if you imbibe at all and pray five times a day. Afterwards the Qur'an prohibited wine categorically, perhaps because people weren't going to prayer. ;-} The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals
On 8/3/06, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To the list in general and Gilberto in particular, I think the question as to why Jesus or Moses were mute on this particular question is tied up with the concept of progressive revelation. If you believe in the Bible, they weren't just mute on this particular question. Important rituals in the old and new testament involve drinking wine. If you do a search on wine in the Bible you actually find a lot of quotes. This concept is not really acceptable to Islam in general because Islam believes that the Qur'an is perfect and uncorrectable over time. Personally, my attitudes about progressive revelation comes from elsewhere. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: alcohol in meals
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:If you believe in the Bible, they weren't just mute on this particularquestion. Important rituals in the old and new testament involvedrinking wine. If you do a search on "wine" in the Bible you actuallyfind a lot of quotes.Absolutely! But they are mute on PROHIBITING alcohol. Except for the verse telling people not to look upon the wine when it is red. Does that mean a Zinfandel or Liebraumilch is okay?There was no way to keep nutritive liquids without fermentation setting in. It's darned hard today to prevent fermentation, and totally impractical once the vacuum seal on a bottle is broken.There are good sources which claim mankind invented agriculture to procure steady
sources of alcohol and mind-altering drugs rather than food. Egypt one of the two great inventor cultures brewed beer and made wine routinely. No hops in the beer of course, but they brewed it anyway.Viniculture raised grapes and there was no way to eat the whole crop at once. The only way to save it was juice which naturally fermented.In the time of Moses and of Jesus, alcohol was a fact of life. Even Muhammad in the Qur'an declares a certain quantity of water to be clean under all circumstances. That is scientifically baseless. Stagnant water will grow all kinds of cultures even when it is the quantity declared by Muhammad. In other words the technology of the dispensation demanded alcohol as a purifier of water.The Arabs had access to coffee and other hot drinks which caused the water to boil. Palestine and Egypt did not have such potables and the water was not boiled except
in food preparation.Moses and Jesus could not declare a ban on alcohol. Society could not have handled it. Pestilence and malnutrition would have been the result.Regards, Scott
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As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
Hi Susan, I have played Bingo, poker, etc. in family meetings (there are azar games)... In the other hand (azar games as recreation to earn a bit money ;-) Are you saying that we cannot play lottery anytime? If so, how did you come to infer that? If there is an authoritative interpretation, Id love to see. [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I infer that gambling as source of bahá?ís funds is forbidden (also gambling as an occupation is inadvisable), but I don?t think it is completely forbidden for recreation purposes. "As far as individuals are concerned, we have carefully studied the
Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi on this point and it is apparent that such subsidiary matters are not recorded in the Holy Texts. The Universal House of Justice is not prepared to decide at this time whether the purchase of lottery tickets should be permitted or prohibited." UHJDear Hasan, The exception being made here is not gambling for recreational purposes it is gambling for *charitiable* purposes. The House is saying while this shouldn't be done to raise Baha'i funds they are not prepared to prohibit Baha'is from participating in any such charitable fundraising at this time. So you can buy a raffle ticket to raise money for an orphanage, but you can't go to a gambling casino or play poker for money with your friends. warmest, SusanMonder M Zbaeda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>escribió: Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't
get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case. I think you'll find they did my friend.. The Holy Quran, 2.219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. The Holy Quran, 5.90: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. The Holy Quran, 5.91: Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants
and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? Allahu Abha, Monder Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I think is a malpractice for bahá'ís to eat a rum pudding (if he knows what is a rum pudding), but I don't see the problem to eat a meal where alcohol is vaporized and gone. I checked some web pages that indicate that alcohol vaporizes when boils or is putted to high degrees. Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case. Hasan Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>escribió: Thanks Sandra and friends to answer. So, the alcohol doesn't vaporize? What about meals where (for
example) a meat is cooked (boiled or fried) with alcohol? In my country, there are few typical plaits that uses a little bit of alcohol, and people (including bahá'ís) love to eat, and I think it is not a big deal. Sandra Huit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>escribió: Is there any rational explanation of why bahá'ís cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes. There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universitiesin the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found that depending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol is retainedin foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my file copy of it, but it was published in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association. At one
time the US Department of Agriculture published a table that showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc., containingingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps. - Sandra Huit The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please
immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is
Re: alcohol in meals
But I'm not about to give up my extracts, which have 30 to 90 per cent alcohol by volume, because Shoghi Effendi said not to eat flaming rum puddings or sip a toast. I think we need to use some common sense. My understanding is that rum puddings have quite a lot of alcohol left in them. I stopped worrying about whether my food was cooked in alcohol when I go out to eat. But naturally, I wouldn't cook with it myself. warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: alcohol in meals
Thanks Sandra and friends to answer. So, the alcohol doesn't vaporize? What about meals where (for example) a meat is cooked (boiled or fried) with alcohol? In my country, there are few typical plaits that uses a little bit of alcohol, and people (including bah's) love to eat, and I think it is not a big deal.Sandra Huit [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: Is there any rational explanation of why bah's cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes.There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universitiesin the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found thatdepending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol is retainedin foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my
file copyof it, but it was published in the Journal of the American DieteticAssociation. At one time the US Department of Agriculture published a tablethat showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc., containingingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps.- Sandra Huit
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RE: alcohol in meals
I think is a malpractice for bah's to eat a rum pudding (if he knows what is a rum pudding), but I don't see the problem to eat a meal where alcohol is vaporized and gone. I checked some web pages that indicate that alcohol vaporizes when boils or is putted to high degrees. Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Bb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case.Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: Thanks Sandra and friends to answer. So, the alcohol doesn't vaporize? What about meals where (for example) a meat is cooked (boiled or fried) with alcohol? In my country, there are few typical plaits that uses a little bit of alcohol, and people
(including bah's) love to eat, and I think it is not a big deal.Sandra Huit [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:Is there any rational explanation of why bah's cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes.There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universitiesin the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found thatdepending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol is retainedin foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my file copyof it, but it was published in the Journal of the American DieteticAssociation. At one time the US Department of Agriculture published a tablethat showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc.,
containingingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps.- Sandra Huit
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Re: alcohol in meals
In a message dated 8/2/06 7:48:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My understanding is that rum puddings have quite a lot of alcohol left in them. Yeah-- my mother made one once for a British-themed dinner party that I swear was at least 80 proof (this happened before I became a Baha'i, so I had no excuse not to eat it). ;-) I stopped worrying about whether my food was cooked in alcohol when I go out to eat. But naturally, I wouldn't cook with it myself. Didn't 'Abdu'l-Baha (or maybe Shoghi Effendi) say something once about not making an issue of alcohol content in food when we're somebody's guest, in order to avoid being rude? Or is that from Kitab-i-Hearsay? --Sekhmet The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: alcohol in meals
(this happened before I became a Baha'i, so I had no excuse not to eat it). ;-) Uh huh. Like you were looking for one. ;-} Didn't 'Abdu'l-Baha (or maybe Shoghi Effendi) say something once about not making an issue of alcohol content in food when we're somebody's guest, in order to avoid being rude? Or is that from Kitab-i-Hearsay? I don't recall anything they said about eating food you have been served that contains alcohol but the Soghomonian Remeyites cite some pilgrim's note I've never seen to justify their continuing to drink alcohol. Soghomonian even serves wine to those who visit him on pilgrimage. When I heard about this, I couldn't resist wriitng some new words to an old drinking ditty: Oh, I'm on the drinking man's diet It came from the Fourth Guardian's throne It's really terrific and and quite scientific And I'm half-stoned Drink, drink, everyone drink It's not as bad as Haifa leads us to think With every Manhatten your stomach will flatten So drink, drink, drink. Drink, drink, booze everywhere Pass that decanter of burbon there If pounds you would burn off, the sans-guardians turn off And drink, drink, drink (apologies to Alan Sherman) warmest, Susan The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: alcohol in meals
I put again the questionHasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: I think is a malpractice for bah's to eat a rum pudding (if he knows what is a rum pudding), but I don't see the problem to eat a meal where alcohol is vaporized and gone. I checked some web pages that indicate that alcohol vaporizes when boils or is putted to high degrees.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
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Re: RE: alcohol in meals
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi:don't get why recent past Prophets as the Bb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Huh? Muhammad and the Bab did forbid it. What about Jesus, Moses or the other Manifestations?
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RE: alcohol in meals - and gambling
I infer that gambling as source of baháís funds is forbidden (also gambling as an occupation is inadvisable), but I dont think it is completely forbidden for recreation purposes. "As far as individuals are concerned, we have carefully studied the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi on this point and it is apparent that such subsidiary matters are not recorded in the Holy Texts. The Universal House of Justice is not prepared to decide at this time whether the purchase of lottery tickets should be permitted or prohibited." UHJ Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:
Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case.I think you'll find they did my friend..The Holy Quran, 2.219: They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider. The Holy Quran, 5.90: O ye who
believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. The Holy Quran, 5.91: Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? Allahu Abha, Monder Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think is a malpractice for bahá'ís to eat a rum pudding (if he knows what is a rum pudding), but I don't see the problem to eat a meal where alcohol is vaporized
and gone. I checked some web pages that indicate that alcohol vaporizes when boils or is putted to high degrees. Moreover, if alcohol is so bad for humans, I don't get why recent past Prophets as the Báb or Muhammad did not forbid it. Because many wines are the same as past wines, so, conditions didn't change on this case.Hasan Elias [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: Thanks Sandra and friends to answer. So, the alcohol doesn't vaporize? What about meals where (for example) a meat is cooked (boiled or fried) with alcohol? In my country, there are few typical plaits that uses a little bit of alcohol, and people (including bahá'ís) love to eat, and I think it is not a big deal.Sandra Huit [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió:Is there any rational explanation of why bahá'ís cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes.There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universitiesin the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found thatdepending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol is retainedin foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my file copyof it, but it was published in the Journal of the American DieteticAssociation. At one time the US Department of Agriculture published a tablethat showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc., containingingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps.- Sandra Huit
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Re: alcohol in meals
In a message dated 8/1/2006 4:01:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi
friends,
Not
related to quotes on alcohol, just for curiosity: Is there any rational
explanation of why bahs cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When
the alcohol boils, only the savor survives andthealcohol
vaporizes.
This quote from Shoghi Effendi says it all:
1173. Drinking Forbidden, No Excuse to Touch It Even in Plum Pudding
"Under no circumstances should Bah's drink. It is unambiguously forbidden
in the Tablet of Bah'u'llh, that there is no excuse for them even touching it
in the form of a toast, or in a burning plum pudding; in fact, in any
way."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer,
March 3, 1957: Cited in a letter from the Universal House of Justice to the
National Assembly of Ecuador, December 21, 1972) (Compilations,
Lights of Guidance, p. 349)
Besides, there are wonderful other flavorings one can use in cooking
without alcohol
Shirley
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Re: alcohol in meals
I always felt that it meant, finally, that alcohol would be resigned
forever to the medicine cabinet and never be kept again as a food item.
And, in reach of temptation. :-) However, this is a purely personal
understanding.
Yours,
Jeanine
Hasan Elias wrote:
Hi friends,
Not related to quotes on alcohol, just
for curiosity: Is there any rational explanation of why bahs cannot
eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only
the savor survives andthealcohol vaporizes.
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and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this
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immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently
delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you.
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Re: alcohol in meals
Title: Re: alcohol in meals
At 9:27 PM -0400 8/1/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 8/1/2006 4:01:38 PM US Mountain
Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi
friends,
Not related
to quotes on alcohol, just for curiosity: Is there any rational
explanation of why bah's cannot eat meals cooked with
alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives
andthealcohol vaporizes.
This quote from Shoghi Effendi says it
all:
1173. Drinking Forbidden, No Excuse to Touch It Even
in Plum Pudding
Under no circumstances should Bah's drink.
It is unambiguously forbidden in the Tablet of Bah'u'llh, that
there is no excuse for them even touching it in the form of a toast,
or in a burning plum pudding; in fact, in any
way.
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an
individual believer, March 3, 1957: Cited in a letter from the
Universal House of Justice to the National Assembly of Ecuador,
December 21, 1972) (Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p.
349)
Besides, there are wonderful other flavorings one can
use in cooking without alcohol
I was thinking there was a subsequent letter from the House of
Justice saying that the decision whether to use small amounts of
alcohol based flavorings, such as vanilla was up to the individual.
The argument has been made that if there is no alcohol remaining,
then this stricture by the Guardian does not apply. That is the
rule I personally use. Thus I know of people who make
scrumptious ice cream toppings laced with rum. Even tho' there is
probably less than a tablespoon of rum per serving, I don't touch
them. (Demerara rum and coke was my drink of choice before
becoming a Baha'i.) I consider flaming rum pudding to be, at least
potentially, in this category. On the other hand, I have no
qualms about using small amounts of alcohol based flavorings in quick
breads, cookies, etc. Given that even if unbaked, there would
typically be less than one sixteenth of a teaspoon of alcohol per
serving, I am going to use them.
On the other hand, the so-called alcohol free beers are only
*legally* alcohol free in some (all?) cases. I know a Baha'i who
was freely imbibing them one evening until he realized he was getting
a bit high. Checking the label, he found that they contained 1/2
of 1 per cent alcohol, which in his state made them legally alcohol
free. A half dozen of them is like having a can of regular
(U.S.) beer.
Don C
--
-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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Re: alcohol in meals
Hi Don,So, Do you think is permissible for bah's to eat a meal cooked with alcoholic drink? A meal where alcohol is vaporized? I don't see any argument against this, if alcohol is gone, so why we can't eat that meal?Don Calkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribi: ...The argument has been made that if there is no alcohol remaining, then this stricture by the Guardian does not
apply. That is the rule I personally use...
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Re: alcohol in meals
Title: Re: alcohol in meals
At 11:19 PM -0500 8/1/06, Hasan Elias wrote:
Hi
Don,
So, Do you think is
permissible for bah's to eat a meal cooked with alcoholic drink?
A meal where alcohol is vaporized? I don't see any argument against
this, if alcohol is gone, so why we can't eat that meal?
I have a neighbor that regularly bastes his grilled ribs with
beer. I can't imagine there is a significant amount of alcohol
in the finished product. I eat them. (I also can't see any
improvement in basting with beer, so I'll never do it myself.) I
don't trust the alcohol to be gone from flambeaus, so I don't eat
them.
Basically, if I see the amount of alcohol per serving as being
insignificant, e.g, a few drops, I don't worry about it. Many
ripe fruits have that much alcohol per serving. On the other
hand, it bothers me a bit that some Baha'is make a big deal out of
using liquors as a flavoring agent. As Shirley noted, generally
there are excellent alternatives, such as fruit juices and ciders,
that work just as well; and I don't think it is appropriate for us to
have bottles of booze sitting around. But I'm not about to give
up my extracts, which have 30 to 90 per cent alcohol by volume,
because Shoghi Effendi said not to eat flaming rum puddings or sip a
toast. I think we need to use some common sense.
[Happen to think - for you Europeans, traditional American cider
was not necessarily alcoholic. In addition to the yeast
fermented drinks, Americans also found out about bacterial fermented
fruit juices. While apple and pear are the most common, in some
areas you can also find cherry, rasberry and prob others. They
have a high acid content and distinct flavor. Delicious if you
can find the real thing.]
Don C
--
-.-.-.-.-
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
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RE: alcohol in meals
Is there any rational explanation of why bahá'ís cannot eat meals cooked with alcoholic drinks? When the alcohol boils, only the savor survives and the alcohol vaporizes. There was a study conducted in the early 1990's at one of the universities in the state of Washington that disproved this. The study found that depending on how the food was prepared, 20 - 85% of the alcohol is retained in foods prepared with various alcoholic liquids. I can't find my file copy of it, but it was published in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association. At one time the US Department of Agriculture published a table that showed how much alcohol remains in stews, sauces, etc., containing ingredients such as wine and brandy. Hope this helps. - Sandra Huit The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
