RE: Rev. 11:3 [nature of Quddus]
Vaughn, At 11:42 PM 6/13/2004, you wrote: But it escapes this mind how one whose station is as great as that of Quddus could think of himself as a Manifestation. 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian, for example, were quick to discount being thought of as a Manifestation. Why would someone as exalted as Quddus think that he is a Manifestation? Manifestation (.zuhuur) is only a word. If I said that your body is a manifestation of your soul, presumably you would not object, right? It seems to me that what Quddus, Tahirih, etc. were saying is that they, and perhaps all the Letters of the Living by extension, were manifestations of the *Representation* of God, the Bab. The point is not how *we* use the term .zuhuur but how *they* used it during the Babi Dispensation. `Abdu'l-Baha's situation was entirely different. Many Westerners wanted to turn Him into the new Christ, and His half-brother, Mirza Muhammad Ali, tried to argue He had claimed to be a Prophet. In order to preserve the Baha'i Covenant, He apparently believed it was necessary to clarify His station as Center of the Covenant. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the best hamburger -- Mark Twain and Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Rev. 11:3
-Original Message- From: Patti Goebel If you haven't seen this provisional translation of the Tablet of Visitation for Quddus revealed by the Bab yet, I'm posting it below. It may give you an idea of the complexity of this issue. It's from http://bahai-library.com/?file=bab_ziyarat_quddus.html Dear Patti, Thanks for posting the Visitation Tablet for Quddus revealed by the Bab. It is indescribably beautiful and sweet. (Though, perhaps the translation all the psychic entities could be improved to something still translationally accurate but more along the line of the Guardian's style of translation, such as all the Concourse on high, or all immortal spirits, or all created souls?) --- Vaughn __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
"To a limited degree, this is reasonable. But it escapes this mind how one whose station is as great as that of Quddus could think of himself as a Manifestation. 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian, for example, were quick to discount being thought of as a Manifestation. Why would someone as exalted as Quddus think that he is a Manifestation?" Dear James, If you haven't seen this provisional translation of the Tablet of Visitation for Quddus revealed by the Bab yet, I'm posting it below. It may give you an idea of the complexity of this issue. It's from http://bahai-library.com/?file=bab_ziyarat_quddus.html. The Bab writes of Quddus: "whomsoever is in thy heart . . .whomsoever is in thy spirit . . . whomsoever is in thy soul . . . whomsoever is in thy body . . . whomsoever hath been created from the light of thy praise . . . whomsoever hath been created from the spirit of thy benediction . . . whomsoever hath been created from the soul of thy unification . . . whomsoever hath been created from the light of thy glorification." This leaves a lot of room for discussion about the specifics of Quddus' station. He also indicates that Quddus was motivated by the Holy Spirit--"thou art the First, for there is no first save thee, and the Last, for there is no last other than thee". Patti *** Tablet of Visitation for Mulla Muhammad 'Ali-i-Barfurushi (Quddús) by Báb, The Originally revealed as Ziyarat-Namih-i-Mullá Muhammad 'Alí-i-Barfurushí. originally published in Rituals in Babism and Bahá'ísm, pp 105-6 (see full citation below) Tablet of Visitation for the martyrs[2], on them be peace, who have sacrificed themselves for the Last Name of God[3], Quddús, Quddús, Quddús. In the Name of God, the Most Inaccessible, the Most Holy! Holy, holy, holy (quddus, quddus, quddus)! The glory from God, no other God is there but He, rest upon thy heart and the heart of whomsoever is in thy heart, and upon thy spirit and the spirit of whomsoever is in thy spirit, and upon thy soul and whomsoever is in thy soul, and upon thy body and whomsoever is in thy body. Then, the exaltation from God rest upon thy heart and the heart of whomsoever hath been created from the light of thy praise, and upon thy spirit and whomsoever hath been created from the spirit of thy benediction, and upon thy soul and whomsoever hath been created from the soul of thy unification,[4] and upon thy body and whomsoever hath been created from the light of thy glorification. Thou hast been raised up, nor is there above thee anyone possessed of exaltation like unto thee; thou hast come near, nor is there anyone possessed of proximity like unto thine. All created things have given praise in unison out of the essence of thy praise, and all atoms have rendered glorification out of the camphor of thy glorification, and all the psychic entities have extolled the oneness of God in unison out of the substance of thine extolling of His unity, and all the individual realities have lauded the greatness of God in unison out of the absolute reality of thy glorification of His greatness. All render praise unto God through thee, and all sanctify God through thee, and all extol God's singleness through thee, and all magnify God through thee. So great hath been thine affliction that the afflictions of all created things are cut off from any connection with it; the calamity that hath overwhelmed thee hath reached so high a station that no other calamity of any created thing may be mentioned in the same breath as it. By thy glory, there is nothing in existence apart from God that weepeth not sore over thee, that is not established under thy shadow, that doth not praise God with the praise thou didst offer, that doth not sanctify His name with the sanctification thou didst render, that doth not extol the unity of God with the praise of His unity that thou didst utter, and that doth not magnify God with the magnification whereby thou didst honour His greatness. From all eternity and unto all eternity thou hast been in the exaltation of holiness and majesty, and unto all eternity thou shalt be in the height of sanctity and beauteousness. Thou art he that hath become manifest through the manifestation of thy Lord, and kept hidden through the concealment of thy Lord, and thou art the First, for there is no first save thee, and the Last, for there is no last other than thee. Thou hast ascended through the degrees of creation unto that horizon where none hath gone before thee; and thou hast been raised upon the throne of thy glory on the highest horizon of paradise, higher than which there is nothing whatever in the knowledge of God. I call upon thee and upon all things as witnesses that thy blood is pure, untainted and unsullied, and that through the residue of its very mention the realities of all created things have been made manifest . . . I call upon God and upon all things as witnesses that God hath
Re: Rev. 11:3
In a message dated 6/12/2004 11:02:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . It may give you an idea of the complexity of this issue. It's from http://bahai-library.com/?file=bab_ziyarat_quddus.html. I wonder, the notes say that the Bab revealed a number of Tablets of Visitation for the separate martyrs of Sheik Tabarsi. Do any of the others approach this wording? I assume it is important to understand the nature of several of these tablets to make an assessment of a single one of these tablets. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
"It also perplexes me that you suggest that "The Baha'i concept...is...frankly not useful in discussing this topic." How can the "Baha'i" view not be relevant to any discussion on this list?" Dear James, I think what Ahang is saying is that our present Baha'i conceptions are necessarily relevant or useful for understanding Quddus himself. And I think we do have to take Quddus own self-understanding very seriously. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
I think what Ahang is saying is that our present Baha'i conceptions are [not] necessarily relevant or useful for understanding Quddus himself. And I think we do have to take Quddus own self-understanding very seriously. To a limited degree, this is reasonable. But it escapes this mind how one whose station is as great as that of Quddus could think of himself as a Manifestation. 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian, for example, were quick to discount being thought of as a Manifestation. Why would someone as exalted as Quddus think that he is a Manifestation? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
In a message dated 6/11/2004 6:00:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But it escapes this mind how one whose station is as great as that of Quddus could think of himself as a Manifestation. 'Abdu'l-Baha and the Guardian, for example, were quick to discount being thought of as a Manifestation. Why would someone as exalted as Quddus think that he is a Manifestation? Dear James, That is because between the time of Quddus and the time of Abdu'l-Baha the meaning of Manifestation appears to have shifted. I've been looking for the data to document this. The Iqan appears to reflect the older understanding. I think the shift occurs in Baha'u'llah's own lifetime, but it may not have happened until Abdu'l-Baha had to defend Himself against Muhammad Ali's charges. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
My own understanding, and it isn't worth much, is that Quddus, Tahirih, etc. were, in a special sense, manifestations of God. However, God, in this case, referred to the Primal Point, the Bab. I think that is pretty much how they saw themselves. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Dear Ahang, You commented: Again, this was in fulfilment of Qur'anic prophecy about the two liars (the Bab and Quddus) and the third one (Baha'u'llah). Could you please provide chapter and verse in the Quran ? Gratefully, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
The reference is to the Sura 36= Heart of the Qur'an 36:13 am sending this from my work during a break hope you can read it khazeh.fananapazir Set forth to them, by way of a parable, the (story of) the Companions of the City. Behold!, there came apostles to it. And set out to them an example of the people of the town, when the messengers came to it. Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent came unto them; Waidrib lahum mathalan as-haba alqaryati ith jaaha almursaloona 36:14 When We (first) sent to them two apostles, they rejected them: But We strengthened them with a third: they said, Truly, we have been sent on a mission to you. When We sent to them two, they rejected both of them, then We strengthened (them) with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you. When We sent unto them twain, and they denied them both, so We reinforced them with a third, and they said: Lo! we have been sent unto you. Ith arsalna ilayhimu ithnayni fakaththaboohuma faAAazzazna bithalithin faqaloo inna ilaykum mursaloona 36:15 The (people) said: Ye are only men like ourselves; and (God) Most Gracious sends no sort of revelation: ye do nothing but lie. They said: You are naught but mortals like ourselves, nor has the Beneficent God revealed anything; you only lie. They said: Ye are but mortals like unto us. The Beneficent hath naught revealed. Ye do but lie! Qaloo ma antum illa basharun mithluna wama anzala alrrahmanu min shay-in in antum illa takthiboona Quoting Sandra Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear Ahang, You commented: Again, this was in fulfilment of Qur'anic prophecy about the two liars (the Bab and Quddus) and the third one (Baha'u'llah). Could you please provide chapter and verse in the Quran ? Gratefully, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Quddus represented himself, both in writing and apparently orally, as the return of Christ. Can you please give examples of this? Baha'u'llah often linked Quddus with Christ, for instance, stating that in his martyrdom no one suffered more than Quddus, "not even Christ". Can you please give examples of this, too? I am not catching how saying that he suffered more than Christ is equivalent to Baha'u'llah having "linked Quddus with Christ". Ali never had the station of Manifestationhood, which Quddus enjoyed. Can you state wherethe Writings denote Quddus as a Manifestation? I am not doubting youI just must have read through such quotes without catching that point. And do the Writings state such "Manifestationhood" as being comparable to that of the Bab, Christ, Baha'u'llah, etc? James __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Folks, I'm not about to start a discussion on the station of Quddus and the concept of Manifestionhood in the Babi Faith (which is drastically different than the same notion in the Baha'i Faith). These things have been discussed previously on internet, where I've contributed extensively. I suggest interested folks doing some digging of their own and find the relevant archives to read through. Regards, ahang. This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as E-Contract Intended, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean www.invista.com/email_disclaimer.shtml __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
I'm not about to start a discussion on the station of Quddus and the concept of Manifestionhood in the Babi Faith (which is drastically different than the same notion in the Baha'i Faith).These things have been discussed previously on internet, where I've contributed extensively. I suggest interested folks doing some digging of their own and find the relevant archives to read through. Does this mean that anyone who comes on the list in the future will have no access to the information? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Dear James maybe if you look at this site you will find some information it is in the Most Great website of Jonah Winters http://bahai-library.com/uhj/letters.quddus.dawnbreakers.html Many thanks! I appreciate your spirit of helpfulness. James You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
In a message dated 6/8/04 11:21:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am still trying to understand why Shoghi Effendi specifically says Quddus was ONE OF THE TWO WITNESSES whose appearance was ANTICIPATED IN THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN. Is the Book of Revelation in this chapter informing us that there are TWO WITNESSES for the first woe and TWO WITNESSES for the second woe? If this is true, somehow this message is escaping me in my reading of it. Thank you. Dear Larry, You are correct. The Book of Revelation is saying that there are two witnesses for the first woe and two for the second woe. The two who appear in the second woe are the return of the former. The first woe after the Day of Jesus is that of Muhammad. The second woe is the Day of the Bab, and the third, that of Baha'u'llah. In the Day of Muhammad, the two greatest witnesses were Muhammad and Ali and this, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation can be correlated with the Book of Revelation. In the Day of the Bab, these two witnesses return in the persons of the Bab and Quddus. In the early history we can observe that the station of Quddus was the highest in the Babi community after that of the Bab. When the Bab was in captivity, it was Quddus who led the Babis and reflected the light of the Bab. He became the Mihdi, and in way, he even became the Bab. In a sense any Manifestation is the return of all the former Manifestations. One could correlate Quddus too with any former Manifestation. But in some respects they are more like particular Manifestations than other ones. Nabil for example represents Quddus in a Christ-like way which helps convey the greatness of his station. The role of John the Baptist is very much like that of Elijah. Quddus' relationship to the Bab is unique in some ways but in other ways similar to that of Ali to Muhammad. Michael __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Rev. 11:3
-Original Message- From: Larry Marquardt In Some Answered Questions page 48, Abdul-Baha says the two winesses in Revelation 11:3 are Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and 'Ali, son of Abu Talib. I am trying to understand the paragraph in God Passes By page 49 where it seems to say, to my understanding, that Quddus' appearance was anticipated in the revelation of St. John the Divine as one of the two witnesses. Dear Larry, Perhaps, just as Ali was foremost among the believers during the lifetime of Muhammad (and was elevated by Him to command the faithful), perhaps Quddus was foremost among the believers during the lifetime of the Bab (and was elevated by Him to lead the faithful in Fort Tabarsi, for example), and in this sense perhaps the latter was the same as (or the return of) the former. (Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha have different relationships to the Bab than simply followers or believers during the lifetime of the Bab and perhaps are therefore in separate categories from Quddus and all other followers of the Bab.) I think the Baha'i Writings confirm that the Imam Husayn had a higher station than Ali, but Ali was contemporaneous with Muhammad. --- Vaughn __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Rev. 11:3
Dear Michael, A very informative note indeed. Nabil for example represents Quddus in a Christ-like way which helps convey the greatness of his station. I agree with this, but would state it slightly differently. Nabil was echoing and in fact down-playing Babi sentiments. Quddus represented himself, both in writing and apparently orally, as the return of Christ. For the Babis that was a critical point since in Shi'a eschatology, the Mihdi had to appear with the Christ. Therefore the claim of the Bab to be the Mihdi was incomplete by itself and the return of Christ had to accompany it, which Quddus fulfilled. Towards this, for instance, Quddus named his sister Maryam (Mary) to evoke that Christian connection and he modeled his life after the Christ (wearing the same type of clothing, etc). Baha'u'llah often linked Quddus with Christ, for instance, stating that in his martyrdom no one suffered more than Quddus, not even Christ. The station of Quddus is really somewhat different than Ali's. Ali never had the station of Manifestationhood, which Quddus enjoyed. That is, while he did not bring about a new Shari'a, and reflected the light of the Bab, he ranked as a Manifestation. Again, this was in fulfilment of Qur'anic prophecy about the two liars (the Bab and Quddus) and the third one (Baha'u'llah). There is much more on this, as we've discussed before. May be we do a paper on this someday. Regards, ahang. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/09/2004 03:20 AM Please respond to Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc Subject Re: Rev. 11:3 In a message dated 6/8/04 11:21:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am still trying to understand why Shoghi Effendi specifically says Quddus was ONE OF THE TWO WITNESSES whose appearance was ANTICIPATED IN THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN. Is the Book of Revelation in this chapter informing us that there are TWO WITNESSES for the first woe and TWO WITNESSES for the second woe? If this is true, somehow this message is escaping me in my reading of it. Thank you. Dear Larry, You are correct. The Book of Revelation is saying that there are two witnesses for the first woe and two for the second woe. The two who appear in the second woe are the return of the former. The first woe after the Day of Jesus is that of Muhammad. The second woe is the Day of the Bab, and the third, that of Baha'u'llah. In the Day of Muhammad, the two greatest witnesses were Muhammad and Ali and this, according to 'Abdu'l-Baha's explanation can be correlated with the Book of Revelation. In the Day of the Bab, these two witnesses return in the persons of the Bab and Quddus. In the early history we can observe that the station of Quddus was the highest in the Babi community after that of the Bab. When the Bab was in captivity, it was Quddus who led the Babis and reflected the light of the Bab. He became the Mihdi, and in way, he even became the Bab. In a sense any Manifestation is the return of all the former Manifestations. One could correlate Quddus too with any former Manifestation. But in some respects they are more like particular Manifestations than other ones. Nabil for example represents Quddus in a Christ-like way which helps convey the greatness of his station. The role of John the Baptist is very much like that of Elijah. Quddus' relationship to the Bab is unique in some ways but in other ways similar to that of Ali to Muhammad. Michael __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] This communication is for use by the intended recipient and contains information that may be privileged, confidential or copyrighted under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby formally notified that any use, copying or distribution of this e-mail, in whole or in part, is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. Unless explicitly and conspicuously designated as E-Contract Intended, this e-mail does not constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment, or an acceptance of a contract offer. This e-mail does not constitute a consent to the use of sender's contact information for direct marketing purposes or for transfers of data to third parties. Francais Deutsch Italiano Espanol Portugues Japanese Chinese Korean www.invista.com/email_disclaimer.shtml
