[Gendergap] Re: #MEMORY (WAS: Re: List update)

[J Hayes]

yes.
virtual memorials are fine, and we could do an editathon in her name
as we did for Kevin,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Women_in_Red/2016_Women_in_Philosophy_Drive
but i think we should organize some scholarships / stipends in her name.
i will raise this at Wikimedia DC meeting in June. if anyone else is
interested, let me know.

Jim Hayes

On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 2:32 PM  wrote:
>
> Very sorry to hear about their passing.
>
> I've been involved with handling the 'administrative side' for a few 
> Wikimedians from the Dutch community we lost last year, and the people that 
> handle the en-Wikipedia page saw my edits and reached out to me and asked if 
> I could write a small in memorial about two of them who also were 
> internationally active: the team is quite pro-active in this. The in 
> memorials were published in the English Signpost.
> Also, since a few years Jimmy mentions the people we lost as a movement in 
> his speech on Wikimania (after an email on wikimedia-l, and maybe other 
> places, to share the usernames of the people we lost in the past year) and we 
> even had a small memorial site at Wikimania 2019. Very nicely done, under a 
> tree, in the grass field next to the main building.
>
> I guess every community needs to find it's own way in this, the en-wp page is 
> imho a good point to start if you would like to create a page for your lost 
> ones.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deceased_Wikipedians
>
> Ciell
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Re: [Gendergap] more women's voices

[J Hayes]

Yeah, if you wanted a case study of what implicit bias looks like, just
look at health care.
It is good working on disaster response, but the vital chronic public
health topics are relatively neglected.
This infant sleep article got elevated by our oclc friends. Much criticism
of the start by the librarians.


On Nov 1, 2017 8:41 PM, "Neotarf"  wrote:

> Health professionals thinking about what belongs in an educational video
> might want to walk down the hall to the outpatient department and see what
> kind of films are being shown to family members while they wait.  Who
> knows, there might even be something out of copyright that can be made
> available to the public. If obstetrics is being described in terms of
> storks (what, no cabbage patch?) then pediatrics on Wikipedia is even more
> dismal. I wondered about this article on infant sleep training and why it
> is assigned to women's health project.  Does Wikipedia recognize no
> difference between gynecology and pediatrics?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Infant_sleep_training And then I
> realized there is no project for pediatrics. With the medicine project
> developing the offline Kiwix application that can be used by practitioners
> who treat refugees and populations in the developing world, this seems like
> a knowledge gap that has huge implications for maternal and infant health
> worldwide.
>
> On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 10:34 PM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> Noting that the discussion has now closed with the video being removed.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 29 October 2017 at 14:50, Ryan Kaldari  wrote:
>>
>>> It would be nice to have some women weighing on this debate:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abortion#RfC_regarding_video
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Gendergap] "As I tried to fight sexism on Wikipedia in Italian"

[J Hayes]

please include it in the GLAM newsletter, (deadline today)

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 9:26 PM, camelia boban 
wrote:

> We shared it on our Milan wiki page event.
>
> Camelia
>
> Il 06 lug 2017 10:37, "Jacqueline Mabey" 
> ha scritto:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just writing to share a link to a story in Motherboard Italia, written by
>> one of the amazing Art+Feminism organizers. She details her struggle to
>> improve Italian-language Wikipedia.
>>
>> https://motherboard.vice.com/it/article/7xz5vq/come-ho-cerca
>> to-di-combattere-il-sessismo-di-wikipedia-italia
>>
>> All best,
>> jackie
>>
>>
>> --
>> currently: Art+Feminism broke all previous records
>> 
>> failed projects is the idiosyncratic cultural production of Jacqueline
>> Mabey
>> jacquel...@failedprojects.net /// failedprojects.net
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Wiktionary *desperately* needs more gender-aware editors

[J Hayes]

because better to leave and do productive work elsewhere, and let
wictionary die, than to fight and get burnt out and blocked.

we all have to decide where we are on exit versus voice - many people are
choosing to leave, it is a rational alternative. SItranscribe is built on
ex-wikipedia volunteers

j

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 4:57 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:

> the smaller wikis have ownership issues , the arguments are so vehement
> because the stakes are so small.
>
> i would advise trying out lots of other wikis like commons or wikisource
> or wikidata. friendlier at source, and lots more metadata cleanup to do at
> commons / wikidata.
>
> cheers.
>
> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:13 AM, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> At the risk of being labelled biased, I do not see that that was a
>> legitimate fix to address systemic bias. It looked rather pointy to me.
>> Perhaps you could explain just how it addressed systemic bias in a useful
>> way.
>>
>> Cheers, Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Gendergap [mailto:gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jessy D. King
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 26 April 2017 7:27 PM
>> *To:* Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> *Subject:* [Gendergap] Wiktionary *desperately* needs more gender-aware
>> editors
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm new to this list, this is my first post.
>>
>>
>>
>> If Wikipedia is a boy's club, Wiktionary is an uber boy's club. It *so*
>> desperately needs people interested in addressing systemic bias.
>>
>>
>>
>> Every time I try to make completely legitimate fixes to address systemic
>> bias of the male privilege variety (for example,
>>
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=so=revision
>> =42598962=42598906 )
>>
>> it is reverted very quickly (in the just-referenced case, within 10
>> minutes). Then a fight must ensue in which I'm accused of being things like
>> "dishonest", "disrespectful" and 'railing'. The person in this case has
>> demonstrated his double standards in his edit summary and in his comments
>> to me on his talk page, and that is absolutely (unfortunately) the norm
>> amongst long-term Wiktionary editors.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is incredibly demoralising. My contributions to Wiktionary include
>> adding etymologies, adding quotations, all with absolutely no gender issues
>> involved, yet none of that work is ever recognised in any way, and I'm
>> treated like a resented interloper. The majority of long-term Wiktionary
>> editors seem to bitterly resent the very suggestion of addressing systemic
>> bias. It is a really, really nasty little uber boy's club in there. Which I
>> realise may not encourage anyone to join, I'm just being honest.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] the poem gap

[J Hayes]

great
i nominate you for team leader
start an idea at idea lab
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab
and go for a small grant of less than 2000
there may be a critical mass of supporters out there
cheers

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 10:42 PM, Amanda Menking <amenk...@uw.edu> wrote:

> I'd be happy to work with English majors and MLIS students at the
> University of Washington. I'm a former English major and teacher myself. :)
>
> On May 11, 2017, at 7:39 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> i would nominate sadads, he's the digital humanist
> but his plate is full
> maybe a small grant
> for a grad student of his choosing
> or roping in womeninred / women in green
>
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 7:12 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> maybe we should do an literature editathon?
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps it's time for a Literature+Feminism editathon (to spin off from
>> the Art+Feminism theme).
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're right Lennart! It looks like I was limiting the query to only
>>>> poems which had the inception date set. I re-ran the queries and got:
>>>>
>>>> Poems by women: 1542
>>>> Poems by men: 20072
>>>> Ratio: 1:13
>>>>
>>>> Poems by women with articles on English Wikipedia: 162
>>>> Poems by men with articles on English Wikipedia: 992
>>>> Ratio: 1:6
>>>>
>>>> Those numbers look a bit more reasonable :) But still plenty of room
>>>> for improvement! Thanks for double-checking my work.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson <
>>>> l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting. Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not saying the results are skewed, but there are lots of poems
>>>>> that are in Wikisource that lack Wikidata entries. For instance, this list
>>>>> of Emily Dickinson poems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>>> List_of_Emily_Dickinson_poems
>>>>>
>>>>> The first poem in her template is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>>> Success_is_Counted_Sweetes
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Success_is_Counted_Sweetest>which has
>>>>> its own Wikidata entry: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7632593 This
>>>>> poem was not listed on the Wikidata query
>>>>> poems by women: http://tinyurl.com/kq4bq8x nor on the query poems by
>>>>> women on English Wikipedia, so all poems are not counted as they should 
>>>>> be.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not to say that there is not probably a poem gap (wonderful
>>>>> term). Just that we should check the numbers before we go public with 
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Lennart Guldbrandsson
>>>>>
>>>>> 070 - 207 80 05
>>>>> http://www.*elementx*.se <http://www.elementx.se>
>>>>> *Skriv som ett proffs <http://www.elementx.se/skriv-som-ett-proffs/>*
>>>>> - min senaste bok
>>>>>
>>>>> Kommande böcker <http://www.elementx.se/om-lennart/kommande-bocker/>
>>>>> | Tidigare böcker <http://www.elementx.se/tidigare-bocker/>
>>>>> Få regelbundna skrivtips direkt till din inkorg
>>>>> <http://elementx.us7.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=ab2080465c6cd11b5b253f940=8a2b974a62>
>>>>>
>>>>> @aliasHannibal <http://twitter.com/AliasHannibal> - på Twitter
>>>>>
>>>>> "*Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri
>>>>> tillgång till **världens samlade kunskap*
>>>>> <http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Huvudsida>*. Det är vårt mål.*"
>>>>> Jimmy Wales
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Från:* Gendergap <gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> för Ryan
>>>>> Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org>
>>>>> *Skickat:* den 11 maj 2017 07:16:26
>>>>> *Till:* Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>>>>> *Ämne:* [Gendergap] the poem gap
>>>>>
>>>>> Just out of curiosity, 

Re: [Gendergap] the poem gap

[J Hayes]

i would nominate sadads, he's the digital humanist
but his plate is full
maybe a small grant
for a grad student of his choosing
or roping in womeninred / women in green

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 7:12 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> maybe we should do an literature editathon?
>>
>
> Perhaps it's time for a Literature+Feminism editathon (to spin off from
> the Art+Feminism theme).
>
>
>
>> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You're right Lennart! It looks like I was limiting the query to only
>>> poems which had the inception date set. I re-ran the queries and got:
>>>
>>> Poems by women: 1542
>>> Poems by men: 20072
>>> Ratio: 1:13
>>>
>>> Poems by women with articles on English Wikipedia: 162
>>> Poems by men with articles on English Wikipedia: 992
>>> Ratio: 1:6
>>>
>>> Those numbers look a bit more reasonable :) But still plenty of room for
>>> improvement! Thanks for double-checking my work.
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson <
>>> l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Interesting. Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am not saying the results are skewed, but there are lots of poems
>>>> that are in Wikisource that lack Wikidata entries. For instance, this list
>>>> of Emily Dickinson poems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>> List_of_Emily_Dickinson_poems
>>>>
>>>> The first poem in her template is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>> Success_is_Counted_Sweetes
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Success_is_Counted_Sweetest>which has
>>>> its own Wikidata entry: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7632593 This
>>>> poem was not listed on the Wikidata query
>>>> poems by women: http://tinyurl.com/kq4bq8x nor on the query poems by
>>>> women on English Wikipedia, so all poems are not counted as they should be.
>>>>
>>>> This is not to say that there is not probably a poem gap (wonderful
>>>> term). Just that we should check the numbers before we go public with them.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Lennart Guldbrandsson
>>>>
>>>> 070 - 207 80 05
>>>> http://www.*elementx*.se <http://www.elementx.se>
>>>> *Skriv som ett proffs <http://www.elementx.se/skriv-som-ett-proffs/>*
>>>> - min senaste bok
>>>>
>>>> Kommande böcker <http://www.elementx.se/om-lennart/kommande-bocker/> | 
>>>> Tidigare
>>>> böcker <http://www.elementx.se/tidigare-bocker/>
>>>> Få regelbundna skrivtips direkt till din inkorg
>>>> <http://elementx.us7.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=ab2080465c6cd11b5b253f940=8a2b974a62>
>>>>
>>>> @aliasHannibal <http://twitter.com/AliasHannibal> - på Twitter
>>>>
>>>> "*Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri
>>>> tillgång till **världens samlade kunskap*
>>>> <http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Huvudsida>*. Det är vårt mål.*"
>>>> Jimmy Wales
>>>> --
>>>> *Från:* Gendergap <gendergap-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> för Ryan
>>>> Kaldari <rkald...@wikimedia.org>
>>>> *Skickat:* den 11 maj 2017 07:16:26
>>>> *Till:* Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>>>> *Ämne:* [Gendergap] the poem gap
>>>>
>>>> Just out of curiosity, I used the Wikidata Query Service to see how
>>>> many poems by women are in Wikidata. The answer is 5. If you do the same
>>>> query for men, you get 255. If you restrict the queries to poems that have
>>>> articles on English Wikipedia you get 1 and 57, i.e. according to Wikidata
>>>> there is only one article about a poem by a woman on English Wikipedia.
>>>> This probably isn't accurate, but it's still a surprising result. While I
>>>> understand that poetry (and writing in general) has historically been the
>>>> domain of men, does a 50 to 1 ratio really reflect the historical reality?
>>>> Anyway, just something to chew on.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to run the queries yourself (or modify them) here they are:
>>>>
>>>> Poems by women: http://tinyurl.c

Re: [Gendergap] the poem gap

[J Hayes]

yes,
i have been writing poetry bios for a while
(and there is a bias in the historical data)

and transcribing on wikisource tends to be by book and not individual poem
(that tends to be an older practice)
the oclc metadata tends to be by book, so we may need some hand curation,
since we have individual poems like a chapter, there is a page to link to.

i have not done too many literature articles;
they are harder to write, and require expertise;
i kind of despaired meeting the Wadewitz standard

maybe we should do an literature editathon?


On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Ryan Kaldari 
wrote:

> You're right Lennart! It looks like I was limiting the query to only poems
> which had the inception date set. I re-ran the queries and got:
>
> Poems by women: 1542
> Poems by men: 20072
> Ratio: 1:13
>
> Poems by women with articles on English Wikipedia: 162
> Poems by men with articles on English Wikipedia: 992
> Ratio: 1:6
>
> Those numbers look a bit more reasonable :) But still plenty of room for
> improvement! Thanks for double-checking my work.
>
> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson <
> l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting. Thanks!
>>
>>
>> I am not saying the results are skewed, but there are lots of poems that
>> are in Wikisource that lack Wikidata entries. For instance, this list of
>> Emily Dickinson poems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>> List_of_Emily_Dickinson_poems
>>
>> The first poem in her template is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>> Success_is_Counted_Sweetes
>> which has its
>> own Wikidata entry: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q7632593 This poem was
>> not listed on the Wikidata query
>> poems by women: http://tinyurl.com/kq4bq8x nor on the query poems by
>> women on English Wikipedia, so all poems are not counted as they should be.
>>
>> This is not to say that there is not probably a poem gap (wonderful
>> term). Just that we should check the numbers before we go public with them.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Lennart Guldbrandsson
>>
>> 070 - 207 80 05
>> http://www.*elementx*.se 
>> *Skriv som ett proffs * -
>> min senaste bok
>>
>> Kommande böcker  | 
>> Tidigare
>> böcker 
>> Få regelbundna skrivtips direkt till din inkorg
>> 
>>
>> @aliasHannibal  - på Twitter
>>
>> "*Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri
>> tillgång till **världens samlade kunskap*
>> *. Det är vårt mål.*"
>> Jimmy Wales
>> --
>> *Från:* Gendergap  för Ryan
>> Kaldari 
>> *Skickat:* den 11 maj 2017 07:16:26
>> *Till:* Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
>> *Ämne:* [Gendergap] the poem gap
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, I used the Wikidata Query Service to see how many
>> poems by women are in Wikidata. The answer is 5. If you do the same query
>> for men, you get 255. If you restrict the queries to poems that have
>> articles on English Wikipedia you get 1 and 57, i.e. according to Wikidata
>> there is only one article about a poem by a woman on English Wikipedia.
>> This probably isn't accurate, but it's still a surprising result. While I
>> understand that poetry (and writing in general) has historically been the
>> domain of men, does a 50 to 1 ratio really reflect the historical reality?
>> Anyway, just something to chew on.
>>
>> If you want to run the queries yourself (or modify them) here they are:
>>
>> Poems by women: http://tinyurl.com/kq4bq8x
>> Poems by men: http://tinyurl.com/m7mqynq
>>
>> Poems by women with articles on English Wikipedia:
>> http://tinyurl.com/mzj6wak
>> Poems by men with articles on English Wikipedia:
>> http://tinyurl.com/mnmsnkl
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[J Hayes]

sorry
i'm not interested in interacting with arbcom or susa
i can only report that people went down those paths
and are dissatisfied with the response
it is impacting any further edits from them
it is impacting interactions with a certain library and their employees.
it is important for the community and WMF to understand the negative
reputation is widespread, and will impact future editing.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> At a minimum I would expect SuSa and/or Arbcom to conduct some meaningful
> investigation if there was an allegation of a functionary's
> trustworthiness. Perhaps (and I'm only speculating here) Arbcom and SuSa
> were unable to find enough hard evidence to support the allegation which is
> why nothing was done. I would suggest taking this matter up with Susa and
> Arbcom directly; perhaps they will be able to explain what they did (if
> anything) and what their findings were (if any). I'd understand if an
> investigation was done but they couldn't find enough evidence to support a
> revocation of functionary permissions; what would concern me more is if the
> matter was brought to their attention and they didn't investigate it at all.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:19 AM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> nope -
>> this was an incident at wikiconUSA 2015
>> apparently nothing done
>> which has impacted the credibility of arbcom and susa
>> (i was not witness, but i find the complainants credible)
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm unfamiliar with this situation, but if there's a functionary whose
>>> off-wiki behavior calls into question of the appropriateness of his/her
>>> continuing
>>> to have access to PII, please do forward that information to SuSa, the
>>> Ombudsman Committee, and/or (as applicable) the local arbitration committee
>>> that would have the ability to investigate the situation.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:29 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
>>>> participation of some librarian editors
>>>> they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is
>>>> in a position to see personal identifying information.
>>>> they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well
>>>>
>>>> this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
>>>>> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
>>>>> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
>>>>> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
>>>>> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> visit:
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>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[J Hayes]

nope -
this was an incident at wikiconUSA 2015
apparently nothing done
which has impacted the credibility of arbcom and susa
(i was not witness, but i find the complainants credible)

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:54 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm unfamiliar with this situation, but if there's a functionary whose
> off-wiki behavior calls into question of the appropriateness of his/her
> continuing
> to have access to PII, please do forward that information to SuSa, the
> Ombudsman Committee, and/or (as applicable) the local arbitration committee
> that would have the ability to investigate the situation.
>
> Pine
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 8:29 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
>> participation of some librarian editors
>> they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is in
>> a position to see personal identifying information.
>> they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well
>>
>> this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
>>> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
>>> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
>>> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
>>> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] "A Call to Men UK " manhood workshops

[J Hayes]

yes, that functionary and his behavior on meta has chilled the
participation of some librarian editors
they are highly skeptical of wiki harrassment efforts as long as he is in a
position to see personal identifying information.
they do not trust check user to be done responsibly as well

this is impacting our efforts to engage a GLAM institution.


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> Speaking of dox and in-person events, a few months ago one of the
> WP:BADSITES known for dox had a thread about attending a WMF
> harassment workshop. So anyone who is not comfortable with a paper
> trail, and would prefer face-to-face conversations with allies, could
> actually find themselves face to face with their harassers instead.
>
> On 4/12/17, Neotarf  wrote:
> > I had meant to revisit this discussion after my thinking on the
> > subject had come together a little better, unfortunately that isn't
> > happening, so I will just express my concerns.
> >
> > Perhaps this is only anecdotal, but it has been my observation that a
> > good many admins are students and either stop editing or cut back
> > their participation drastically in their junior year. So if they start
> > at age 12, which I think has happened a lot, they are basically
> > editing for about ten years. I find it hard to believe there are that
> > many older admins, the photos from events certainly don't bear this
> > out.
> >
> > The link from enwiki is interesting, I do recognize names of a few
> > professionals but even more who fit the 'advanced student' pattern.
> > The pattern on Meta seems similar.
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%
> 3AListUsers==sysop=1=1=2000
> >
> > So the problem I am trying to solve is basically the "endless
> > September" one that Sue pointed out in her 2011 editor retention talk
> > to WMUK.  I know this information is dated, but the concept still
> > might be a useful starting point. I have not spent a lot of time on
> > Meta, but a while back I was quite startled to have an individual on
> > Meta demand I engage with him in a discussion about vulgar words for
> > reproductive organs
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:
> Ajraddatz=15715606=15715064
> > , and even more startled to find out this was a functionary. Not only
> > that, it is someone who appears to be deeply opposed to the concept of
> > safe space
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:
> IdeaLab/Inspire/Meta=15729581
> > and whose name appears on a key committee for Wikimania, which as I
> > understand it, will be under a safe space policy. So my original
> > question was how can we get newcomers up to speed on the social norms,
> > but considering the number of past privacy violations by
> > functionaries, both on WP and on WP criticism sites, now the question
> > seems to be who has access to PII, especially for in-person events.  I
> > know of no policy for this. Perhaps it is time to restrict all access
> > to PII to WMF staff and contractors.
> >
> > On 2/20/17, WereSpielChequers  wrote:
> >> *Re "** young men from 11-19", which if you think about it, is pretty
> >> much
> >> the demographic of Wikimedia's admins and functionaries."* That's an old
> >> joke, but nowadays a joke that looks a tad out of touch. Yes a
> >> significant
> >> proportion of  people were that age when they became admins in
> 2004-2008.
> >> But if there is one thing we know about the people who became admins ten
> >> years ago, it is that they are ten years older today. I couldn't
> >> guarantee
> >> that none of our current admins were that young now, but I'd be
> surprised
> >> if more than one or two were. Only twenty of our current admins created
> >> their accounts in the last six years
> >>  3AListUsers==sysop=1=1=2000>.
> >> RFA has been difficult for teenagers to pass for several years now, If
> >> any
> >> have got through in the last six years they have been unusually mature
> in
> >> behaviour. As for Functionaries, Functionaries other than crats have to
> >> prove they are 18 or over when they become Functionaries. So it is
> >> theoretically possible that any new functionaries who first became so in
> >> the last two years could be 18 or 19, but it isn't exactly likely.
> >>
> >> The template bombers who tag lots of articles for admins to delete
> >> probably
> >> do include some people in that age group, but admins? If 1% of the 1200
> >> admins on English Wikipedia were still under 21 I would be stunned. Far
> >> more admins are over 60 than could possibly be 11-19.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 20 February 2017 at 18:53, Neotarf  wrote:
> >>
> >>> "A Call to Men UK has 55 coaches working in schools, youth justice
> >>> departments and youth centres across Worcestershire. The organisation
> >>> has
> >>> one principal aim, explains development manager 

Re: [Gendergap] [Wikimedia-l] Let's go gender neutral

[J Hayes]

that was a nice editathon - Council on Foreign Relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/DC/CFR

yes, the drive by tagging by patrollers is mainly useless
if you used it as a process to add and remove tags is might work, but for
now it is adversive backlog creating for gnomes

smallbones got chastised for removing an old tag, and now they have
"instructions on removal"

that's very good i have not had any luck engaging partollers.

cheers


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, the article was templated less than an hour after it was moved
> out from a user page. Looks like they removed 3 refs at the same time.
> At that point it had 6 refs, including WaPo and Foreign Policy, now it
> has 17, including BBC News, Guardian, Independent, NYT.
>
> Adding templates seems to be automatic, but for what? No one seems to
> be monitoring them, or using them to track articles, but who has the
> authority to remove them when they are outdated?  In this case it
> seems to be casting doubt on a solid article.  The person who put it
> there is averaging an edit every two minutes, they have long moved on
> to something else.
>
> The last time I got templated by a patroller, I convinced him to write
> his first article, lol, it was a decent article too, and he even
> joined my WikiProject.
>
> On 4/12/17, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > yes, i remember the meetup, where they created the manel article.
> > there is a  distinct lack of self-awareness in the community.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Nicely done.  If you want to tweak the language, I would suggest to
> >> put the recommended usage first, then the suggested corrections, as it
> >> sometimes confuses people to give them examples then say they are
> >> examples of incorrect usage. Also it would be nice to explain things
> >> in very plain language, so people don't have to look things up.  For
> >> example, Urban Dictionary tells me there are "10 kinds of people in
> >> the world, those who understand 'binary' and those who don't."
> >>
> >> The enwiki RFC I think is confusing because it was rewritten to answer
> >> objections of people who originally voted against it, but the rewrite
> >> was not introduced as a new proposal, "option 2" or whatever.  Perhaps
> >> this was the best thing to do, but whoever closes the discussion may
> >> not be able to tell what people are voting for.
> >>
> >> Originally I wondered if such a proposal was really necessary as we
> >> have MOS:GNL.  Editors often use WP:MOS as a convenience even if the
> >> page they are working with does not have its own guidelines.  But when
> >> I looked at the policy page for the requested change, the first thing
> >> I saw was a photograph of sixteen men, two of them smoking pipes, and
> >> zero women, with the caption: "Talk page discussions are usually held
> >> before substantive changes are made to policies."[1] IIRC this is
> >> called a "manel".  A quick check of the "manel" article reveals a big
> >> orange template disputing notability at the top of the page, in spite
> >> of ample citations from the usual RS.[2]
> >>
> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_
> >> guidelines#Content
> >> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manel_(term)
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/12/17, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> >> > project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> >> > policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
> >> > environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
> >> > discussions and vote!
> >> >
> >> > * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> >> neutral_language
> >> > *
> >> >
> >> > The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
> >> > taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
> >> > the creative discussions that go on when so many international
> >> > Wikimedians get together.
> >> >
> >> > If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
> >> > Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
> >> > see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> >> >

Re: [Gendergap] US government website for International Women of Courage Award is down

[J Hayes]

the poor archiving of state department predates the change over
i did some link rot repair using archive.is but there may be lost years
we should think about a program of archiving state urls, since they will
not do it.

jim

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 4:40 AM, Ellie Kesselman 
wrote:

> I searched the U.S. State Department website, and while I got many hits,
> see here https://findit.state.gov/search?query=International+
> Women+of+Courage+Award=dos_stategov=
>
> the only page that was not 404 error not found was this
> https://www.state.gov/s/gwi/iwoc/index.htm
>
> I don't know what is going on, nor whether it is temporary. I doubt that
> it is due to the new Trump administration, as there was continuity between
> the Bush and Obama administrations.
>
> FeralOink
>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] U.S. government website for International Women of Courage Award is down

[J Hayes]

here is the archive .is page
https://archive.is/1XJm
internet archive not working

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> The U.S. government website for the International Women of Courage Award
> is down. There are probably quite a few articles that link to this page, as
> it helps establish notability for many women in the Global South.
>
> The award was started by Condoleezza Rice in 2007 when she served as U.S.
> Secretary of State under Republican president George W. Bush.
>
> https://www.state.gov/s/gwi/programs/iwoc/
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Women's march speeches repeatedly put up for deletion

[J Hayes]

yeah- nominating VOA video for deletion is proof of the cultural bias - so
it goes

On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 7:14 AM, Fæ  wrote:

> Advocate for what exactly? There nothing ethically wrong in ensuring
> we establish precedent using an equal sample space rather than cases
> chosen because they are about a Women's march in the news. The most
> common interpretation of that would be advocating for fairness in
> approach.
>
> Fae
>
> On 30 January 2017 at 12:05, JJ Marr  wrote:
> > Two wrongs don't make a right and using this mailing list to advocate for
> > that crosses a line.
> >
> > On Jan 30, 2017 05:11, "Fæ"  wrote:
> >>
> >> Link:
> >> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_
> requests/File:Activist_Gloria_Steinem_Tells_Women%27s_March_
> Protesters_%27Put_Our_Bodies_Where_Our_Beliefs_Are%27.webm
> >>
> >> I am concerned that amongst the many videos of talks and speeches
> >> where people refer to their notes, it is these recent Women's march
> >> videos that have been targeted to set an unusual precedent and are
> >> being vigorously argued for deletion, along with some parallel
> >> drama-mongering on Jimmy Wales' talk page. Perhaps it would be
> >> healthier to put up an equal number of comparative videos of men
> >> talking at WMF events, using the same arguments about prepared notes
> >> needing to be published before the video can be considered correctly
> >> released; or would that be too pointy?
> >>
> >> Fae
> >> --
> >> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >>
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Re: [Gendergap] "Is Wikipedia Woke?"

[J Hayes]

was it normal release, or release of user name + name?
i believe Erika Herzog <https://www.facebook.com/erikaherzog?fref=ufi> may
not have understood about the user name issue.

perhaps i am overly sensitive to this issue, since a WMDC editor was outed,
in a less friendlier venue

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Pharos <pharosofalexand...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes, Rob is right, the Bloomberg photographer did seek individual
> information and permission.  Most people just put their given names on the
> nametags anyway, the photographer followed up with asking if they wanted to
> be included and how they wanted to be attributed.
>
> Thanks,
> Pharos
>
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Some of the editors were identified by names which did not appear on
>> their name tags, and at least one was not identified by name in the
>> caption, only by user name.  That appears to indicate that the photographer
>> sought individual information and permission. I'll ping some of the NYC
>> folks who were there and ask them to clear this up.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If BBW failed to confirm that photos with nametags were OK with any of
>>> those they depicted, yes, that would be a problem. I'm confident they would
>>> want to know about that, and I'd be happy to pass that feedback along if it
>>> hasn't already been delivered.
>>>
>>> But is there any reason to believe that happened?
>>> Pete
>>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 9:39 AM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> yes and some time  dilation
>>>> and taking pictures of people with user name tags on, so outing
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This feature article from Bloomberg BusinessWeek does, IMO, a great
>>>>> job of exploring and contextualizing Wikipedia's diversity issues. The
>>>>> reporters really did their homework on this one, taking the time to 
>>>>> explore
>>>>> all angles.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are certainly a few factual errors, the most egregious are
>>>>> probably the confusing between policy and guideline on paid editing, and
>>>>> the conflation of Wikipedia and WMF in a couple places.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is Wikipedia Woke?
>>>>> The ubiquitous reference site tries to expand its editor ranks beyond
>>>>> the Comic Con set.
>>>>> by Dimitra Kessenides and Max Chafkin
>>>>> December 22, 2016
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-12-22/how-woke-
>>>>> is-wikipedia-s-editorial-pool
>>>>>
>>>>> -Pete
>>>>> --
>>>>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>>>>
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>>>>
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Re: [Gendergap] "Is Wikipedia Woke?"

[J Hayes]

yes and some time  dilation
and taking pictures of people with user name tags on, so outing

On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 12:08 PM, Pete Forsyth 
wrote:

> This feature article from Bloomberg BusinessWeek does, IMO, a great job of
> exploring and contextualizing Wikipedia's diversity issues. The reporters
> really did their homework on this one, taking the time to explore all
> angles.
>
> There are certainly a few factual errors, the most egregious are probably
> the confusing between policy and guideline on paid editing, and the
> conflation of Wikipedia and WMF in a couple places.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Is Wikipedia Woke?
> The ubiquitous reference site tries to expand its editor ranks beyond the
> Comic Con set.
> by Dimitra Kessenides and Max Chafkin
> December 22, 2016
>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-12-22/how-
> woke-is-wikipedia-s-editorial-pool
>
> -Pete
> --
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Inside Higher Ed: "The Woes of Wikipedia"

[J Hayes]

Ooh are you questioning your libertarian axioms .gasp

On Aug 24, 2016 08:20, "JJ Marr" <jjm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> My favorite is the article criticizing "cultural logics" like "valuing
> logic over emotion… individual liberty over the common good, and a sense of
> entitlement wrapped in a defense of 'free speech'". Really makes you think…
>
> On Aug 23, 2016 9:23 PM, "J Hayes" <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes a little fallout from an Afc  reviewer taken to ani
>> Why she was wasting her copy-editing talent at that wasteland is beyond me
>> The bad press will continue until the culture improves
>> Cheers
>>
>> On Aug 23, 2016 19:51, "Carol Moore dc" <carolmoor...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/library-babel-fish/woes-wikipedia
>>>
>>> Good 8/23/16 summary of issues and past problems.
>>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Ruth Barrett bio

[J Hayes]

i see brainyj drove by tag-spamed it , 2 years ago
recently, they can't be bothered with AfD, especially with old material
they concentrate on biting new editors articles.



On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 11:05 PM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

> Dang, I should have found some refs first. See how out of practice I am!
> I was sure I'd read it already was discussed by Time or something.
>
> I'm sure that the bio will be quickly deleted, even after the book
> published and reviewed, while thousands of male bios with no refs survive.
> Sigh...
>
> On 6/26/2016 9:45 PM, Michael J. Lowrey wrote:
>
>> The article as written contains no assertions, plausible or otherwise,
>> of notability. It reeks with redlinks and self-published "sources".
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 7:39 PM, Carol Moore dc
>> > wrote:
>>
>> It looks like her bio is being challenged just as the book she
>> edited is starting to get reliable source attention. In case anyone
>> wants to work on it.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Barrett
>>
>> The book is "Female Erasure: What You Need To Know About Gender
>> Politics’, War On Woman, the Female Sex, and Human Rights"
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael J. "Orange Mike" Lowrey
>>
>> "When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food
>> and clothes."
>>  --  Desiderius Erasmus
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Looking for Queen Waldra

[J Hayes]

ok there your go
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldrada_of_Wormsgau

rough translation of italian version
needs polish and leaning toward OR.

i see there was an article on her daughter

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Fæ  wrote:

> Waldra became the wife of Lothar II in AD 862, but was pursued by the
> Pope to have them separated, accused of having too much power over the
> King and was thought to be a witch.
>
> See the nicely historical article which challenges us to create a
> Wikipedia article for her at <
> http://www.historymatters.group.shef.ac.uk/erased-history-queen-waldrada
> >
>
> There is a page in German at < https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldrada
> >, however the English Wikipedia only has a redirect to Lothar.
>
> Anyone game for creating the biography and posting a link to it at the
> historymatters group?
>
> Fae
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Gender gap vs gender bias

[J Hayes]

yes, i believe we have discussed this before-

there is a systemic bias in article subjects (including a sub-set of bios)
based on editor interest;
there is a systemic bias in the "reliable sources" which makes it harder to
address bias, by adding sources alone;
there is systemic bias with cultural push back when "feminist" topics are
edited

the research newsletter would have more information: i.e.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2015/February#.22First_Women.2C_Second_Sex:_Gender_Bias_in_Wikipedia.22

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2013/July#Survey_participation_bias_analysis:_More_Wikipedia_editors_are_female.2C_married_or_parents_than_previously_assumed

i don't see studies of subject matter quality bias

jim

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Natacha Rault  wrote:

>  Hi everyone,
>
> I am running currently a project in Switzerland dedicated to the gender
> gap. More information here (in French)
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Suisse/Biographies_des_femmes_en_Suisse
> and here on the website of the University of Geneva:
> http://www.unige.ch/rectorat/egalite/evenement/actualites/wikipedia/
>
> I had an interesting encounter on Twitter with an established Wikipedian
> who suggested that women bios and bios in general were not well received by
> the wikipedian community because of admissibility issues.
>
> This person also suggested that addressing gender gap could not be
> fulfilled by just having women write bios, because this is addressing only
> the gender bias. He said writing bios did not help women address more
> complicated and technical subjects.
>
> He wrote that limiting the gender gap to the gender bias is not enough.
>
> Does anyone have a clue on this subject and/or informations, discussion
> feeds and papers of academic research?
>
> I had the idea that gender gap had two aspects: contributor gap and
> subject gap. To me gender bias had more to do with the way sexist
> stereotypes introduces differences in the way an article is written: for
> e.g. women bios tend to be more focused on the marital life and less on the
> work achieved, less linked to other articles. Therefore the two concepts
> cannot so easily be separated and have a two way causality.
>
> So I would really appreciate an exchange on this subject (sorry if it has
> been addressed before), and of the ways we can address the problem in
> effect, and not just in theory (especially when running an editing workshop
> or edit-a-thon). Do we have somme sort of best practices somewhere? A group
> devoted to this?
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] contents of Gendergap Digest, Vol 62, Issue 10

[J Hayes]

i have copy pasted the discussion here
warning tl;dr


On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 1:18 PM,  wrote:

> I cannot read Facebook because their real name policy means I was banned
> (trans + harassers). Is this available anywhere else?
>
> Anna Johnson
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 14, 2016, at 09:50, Neotarf  wrote:
>
> There is a lengthy thread about this on Facebook, starting March 12:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Jacqueline Mabey <
> jacquel...@failedprojects.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just wanted to let you know that we are aware of the anomaly in Regina,
>> and are working to figure out want happened. We will include our findings
>> in our final report on meta wiki.
>>
>> Best,
>> Siân + Jackie + Michael
>> Art+Feminism lead co-organizers
>>
>>
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10 out of 12 new articles from editathon nominated for deletion.rtf
Description: RTF file
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[Gendergap] journalist versus troll story

[J Hayes]

http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-benjamin-wey/
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Re: [Gendergap] contents of Gendergap Digest, Vol 62, Issue 10

[J Hayes]

Yes,
The sequence  being:
Regina editathon
One inexperienced new page patroler mass delete
Ockerbloom Philly tweets
I Facebook to Wikipedia weekly
Group triage
A lesson learned would be nice
Cheers
On Mar 14, 2016 12:51 PM, "Neotarf"  wrote:

> There is a lengthy thread about this on Facebook, starting March 12:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Jacqueline Mabey <
> jacquel...@failedprojects.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just wanted to let you know that we are aware of the anomaly in Regina,
>> and are working to figure out want happened. We will include our findings
>> in our final report on meta wiki.
>>
>> Best,
>> Siân + Jackie + Michael
>> Art+Feminism lead co-organizers
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Systematic tagging for deletion of articles created at Art And Feminism editathon

[J Hayes]

it's hard to tell the privileged ignorance from the actively sexist.
ultimately motive does not matter.
the biting culture  rejects what does not fit the stereotype
just as associate professor is a delete me sign,  so is "feminist"
an editathon for newbies are SPA, and where one of the article subjects are
present is COI
it's all about the NPOV ethics. lol

and after 12 nominations maybe 2 deletions.
we should expect this kind of push back from the cultural buzzsaw.
our scrunity of the newbie work will be part of the editathon process.
so it goes.

cheers

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Emily Monroe 
wrote:

> It was mostly a passing impulse that I was worried about, and decided to
> express, just in case.
>
> But since I'm currently semi-wikibonked, and you're actually participating
> in the discussions (thanks!), you probably know more than I do.
>
> From,
> Emily
>
> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Pete Forsyth 
> wrote:
>
>> Emily, could you elaborate on your reason for thinking sexist Wikipedians
>> were a significant factor here? Having reviewed and engaged with several of
>> the articles and AfDs under discussion, I don't see any reason for that. In
>> my view, there were some unnecessarily unpleasant comments, but nothing
>> that struck me as sexist. But if I've missed something, I'd like to know.
>> -Pete
>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Emily Monroe 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Do you think the draft templates were the issue? Maybe I'm overly
>>> cynical, perhaps they advertised the fact that they were created by arts
>>> and feminism to sexist wikipedians.
>>>
>>> From,
>>> Emily
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Pharos 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 This is actually the 3rd year of Art+Feminism, and the organizers'
 focus has consistently been on improving existing articles (particularly
 stubs!), as most appropriate to new Wikipedians, particularly at this scale
 of effort.

 Of course some new Wikipedians are eager to start new articles, and we
 accommodate that as best we can, both with personal assistance from
 long-term Wikipedians where possible, and also technical innovations like
 the draft template system we premiered this year.

 Thanks,
 Pharos

 On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Pete Forsyth 
 wrote:

> I very much agree, Emily. I wonder if this time, perhaps all the
> (wonderful and timely) media coverage of Emily Temple Wood's efforts to
> create new articles may have influenced organizers and/or participants?
> Perhaps it created a bit of a consensus, conscious or unconscious, that
> *creating new articles* was the main desired result.
>
> If so, this might be a bit of a one-time anomaly, may not indicate a
> need for major changes.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Emily Monroe  > wrote:
>
>> In general, creating articles are very difficult. The learning curve
>> is steep, and it may be best to have people expand/improve articles 
>> instead
>> of creating them.
>>
>> From,
>> Emily
>> On Mar 12, 2016 11:48 AM, "Ryan Kaldari" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I find it disappointing that so many of the Art and Feminism
>>> editathons end up focusing almost exclusively on creating new articles 
>>> for
>>> artists at the hosting institution. Not only does this lead to a high
>>> percentage of the articles being deleted, but it's a waste of a huge
>>> opportunity to create and expand articles about artists and artworks 
>>> with
>>> unquestionable notability and high encyclopedic value.
>>>
>>> I have no doubt that many of the Art and Feminism articles that are
>>> nominated for deletion are nominated due to gender bias (as some of them
>>> seem rather trivial to find sources for and improve), but many of them 
>>> are
>>> also legitimately on the notability borderline. At all of the Art and
>>> Feminism editathons that I've volunteered at, I've discouraged people 
>>> from
>>> creating articles about people they knew personally, and encouraged 
>>> them to
>>> use the lists at
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/ArtAndFeminism/Tasks
>>> instead. If you are helping to run an Art and Feminism editathon, I 
>>> would
>>> also suggest doing this, as it provides more value for Wikipedia and 
>>> leads
>>> to fewer deletions. I would also like to encourage everyone to edit the
>>> lists at
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/ArtAndFeminism/Tasks
>>> and help keep them full of good suggestions. Editathons are a great tool
>>> for addressing the gendergap, and I would hate for 

[Gendergap] Women's Media Center. speech project

[J Hayes]

http://wmcspeechproject.com/
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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[J Hayes]

"the reaction would have been infinitely more severe if not for the name of
the author"

oh no, the reaction is because she is a women. commentators at signpost
care not of position, but they could be appalled that a woman is in a
position of responsibility. why waste a chance to sealion when someone is
celebrating the belated diversity article writing efforts.

it's all about the editing ethics on signpost, lol

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Risker  wrote:

>
> On 24 February 2016 at 13:45, Nathan  wrote:
>
>> 
>> Additionally, not only have I never heard "badass" used in a derogatory
>> way, I've never even once heard anyone suggest that it might be used as an
>> insult. In my experience it has only ever been a compliment. In the context
>> of Keilana's op-ed, it should be obvious to any reader that she used it
>> positively.
>>
>> If exactly the same article had been written by someone who has a long
> and colourful history of behaviour considered to be very uncivil, nobody
> would be thinking it was an okay article.  It's only okay because Keilana
> wrote it, it wouldn't be okay if someone with a history of alleged misogyny
> wrote it *using exactly the same words*. I doubt very much that the
> Signpost would have published it had it been written by any number of other
> people - in fact, I'm doubtful it would have been published if written by
> any male editor, though Rob could tell us otherwise - but even if they did
> publish it, the reaction would have been infinitely more severe if not for
> the name of the author.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[J Hayes]

"Keilana's actions have encouraged people to make it less so. "

or validating the bad behavior elsewhere.
i'd just say they don't need no validation, they will continue the "buzz
saw" regardless.
this language appropriation, (like sl**-walking) is a common enough device
to be cliché. shouldn't have to let the young editors vent, but it's better
than internalizing it.

and please don't troll the Yanks to immigrate, we're saving for our
wikimania 2017 tickets, wouldn't want to make it one way.

cheers

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Risker  wrote:

>
> On 22 February 2016 at 13:06, Neotarf  wrote:
>
>> @Risker, if your high school student are that benign, perhaps I will move
>> to Canada.
>>
>>
>
> :-)  Even though it's a big urban centre that takes the word
> "multicultural" to a whole new level, Toronto is actually a pretty
> accommodating and pleasant place.You'd probably like it here.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[J Hayes]

risker:
i'm kinda with you about defining deviancy down

it's just that things are so bad can't go lower
article subjects are already dismayed by the opaque unfriendly culture
they periodically ask for article deletion
librarians are advised about the "cultural buzzsaw"
having a safe environment on line is a lost cause
but we can have a grim determination with much cursing

cheers

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Risker  wrote:

> I think I've made myself clear, Pete. I don't think that anything I say
> will make a difference, any more than anything I have ever said has changed
> the sub-optimal behaviour of any editor who thinks it's acceptable
> professional behaviour to cuss all over the place.  I'm just really
> disappointed that people who used to be in the "let's make this a more
> pleasant and positive place to do our work" have gone over to the other
> side.
>
> Risker
>
> On 21 February 2016 at 19:38, Pete Forsyth  wrote:
>
>> Risker, I want to be clear:
>>
>> It's not that I don't see a problem. I'm actually pretty sympathetic to
>> your view; but I think your point has been made very strongly already, and
>> the important audience is the Signpost editorial staff. I am confident they
>> have heard the message, and I don't see how further discussion moves us in
>> a better direction. The past can't be changed. I suppose the Signpost could
>> retract the op-ed, but I rather doubt you're seeking something so
>> extreme...or am I wrong?
>>
>> -Pete
>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Risker  wrote:
>>
>>> I feel very sad that you fellows don't see the problem in using this
>>> kind of language to describe women. "Badass" isn't a compliment. After the
>>> first two descriptions, I was fully expecting to see "brilliant
>>> motherf***er" to describe the third one.  I'm surprised it wasn't used, in
>>> fact.
>>>
>>> The subjects of our articles deserve to be treated much better than
>>> this.
>>>
>>> Further, I'm incredibly disappointed that this got published in The
>>> Signpost.  On Emily's own page...well, okay.  But instead of drawing
>>> attention to the women who are the subjects of the articles, almost all of
>>> the discussion is about the language used to describe themand pointing
>>> out that several of them already had articles about them that were
>>> improved, rather than that they'd not been written about at all.
>>>
>>> All in all, it impressed me as an island of lovely flowers in a garden
>>> with a winter's worth of St. Bernard droppings.
>>>
>>> Risker
>>>
>>> On 21 February 2016 at 17:13, Pete Forsyth 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 +1 Ryan.

 This was one article, and no Wikipedians, readers, or article subjects
 were injured as a result of its publication. I don't really have a strong
 opinion one way or the other about whether using language in this way is
 OK. But the main lesson to me is how much the English Wikipedia community
 has come to value the Signpost as an institution. It's hard to imagine such
 any Signpost column inspiring so much passion, say, five years ago. Above
 all, I think this constitutes a strong endorsement of the general value of
 the Signpost.

 -Pete

 On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Ryan Kaldari 
 wrote:

> The depressing thing to me is that the English Wikipedia community
> takes all of 10 minutes to work itself into a frenzy about the use of
> profanity in a positive, non-personal way, but if an editor on Wikipedia
> calls a female editor a cunt, no one dares to bat an eye.
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> Is it a double standard?  If that page hadn't been written by
>> Keilana, would it have been published as is?
>>
>> Perhaps you're right, it *is* a double standard.  Just not quite the
>> one some think it would be.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 21 February 2016 at 08:31, Neotarf  wrote:
>>
>>> Op-ed about systemic bias and articles created.  Interesting double
>>> standard about profanity in the comment section.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2016-02-17/Op-ed
>>>
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> 

[Gendergap] Harassment workshop

[J Hayes]

fyi: second in a planned series of discussions on meta

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Harassment_workshop
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Re: [Gendergap] Lists of notable deaths of 2015

[J Hayes]

nice work
this is worth making into do list and adding to women in red tasks

it might be worth scraping nytimes and working back, i.e.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/obituaries/notable-deaths-2014.html

this is a nice task for newbies, like the 1lib1ref for everyone, just
sprinkling nytimes notability dust throughout.

cheers.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:51 AM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, a bot-driven list would be quite helpful, if for no other reason than
> being standardized and therefore race- and gender-blind as far as selection
> criteria.  I have just finished compiling a list from the NYT article, and
> it was very labor intensive just to generate the list, before even starting
> to look for red links.
>
> Note, obituary notices from international newspapers are "articles", not
> advertisements; for further info see the NYT article on how to tell their
> classified pages from an article.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/25/business/media/25asktheeditors.html
> Also see the WP article on "obituary".
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obituary
>
> The *articles* referenced in the above "lists of notable deaths in 2015"
> are:
>
> **Los Angeles Times*, "Notable deaths of 2015"
> http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-2015-notable-deaths-gallery-photogallery.html
>
> **The Washington Post*, "Notable deaths of 2015 and 2016"
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/notable-deaths-of-2015/2015/01/06/8a2c7536-92b6-11e4-ba53-a477d66580ed_gallery.html
>
> *The Wall Street Journal, "2015 Year in Review: Notable Deaths"
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/2015-year-in-review-notable-deaths-1450647522
>
> *The Telegraph, "Culture stars who died in 2015"
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/culture-stars-who-died-in-2015/
>
> **BBC*, "Notable UK deaths of 2015"
> http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35060400
> **New York Times,* "Notable Deaths of 2015"
> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/obituaries/notable-deaths-2015.html?_r=1
>
> Out of the 200-odd notable deaths in the NYT article, the following women
> are red links:
> * December*: Mariuccia Mandelli, Peggy Say;  *November*; Janet Wolfe;
> *October*: Olga Hirshhorn; *August*:Blondell Cummings, *April*: Evelyn
> Starks Hardy, Anne-Claude Leflaive.
>
> In addition, there are problems noted--several of the articles are stubs,
> one appears to be at the wrong name, one shares an article with her
> husband, and others have tags for reasons that are not immediately
> apparent.  One could wish the people who tag these things would actually
> fix them if they see a problem, or at least leave a note on the talk page.
> I noted several of the articles did not have photos, but did not make a
> note of that.  Is there some checklist?  It would seem if they are now
> deceased it would be possible to find a fair-use image. Complete notes and
> links, as well as links to existing articles are at:
> https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/lists-of-notable-deaths-of-2015/
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:59 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> i should not imagine a fear of paid notices, should prevent a systematic
>> inclusion of NYTimes obits, which are assumed notable.
>> especially with the reference generator doing all the formatting.
>>
>> no one is doing this; the article mentions 25% female among these. i.e.
>> we don't include reliable sources even to the extent they present less of a
>> gap than we do.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case <
>> danc...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
>>
>>> >At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an
>>> obituary." Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and
>>> >online) look much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements.
>>> I'm not even certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death
>>> notice"=paid ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting
>>> what I learned from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
>>>
>>> Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids”
>>> are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look
>>> like any other story in the same newspaper.
>>>
>>> However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut
>>> back on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their
>>> journalistic teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker
>>> of my wife’s died rather suddenly;

Re: [Gendergap] Lists of notable deaths of 2015

[J Hayes]

i should not imagine a fear of paid notices, should prevent a systematic
inclusion of NYTimes obits, which are assumed notable.
especially with the reference generator doing all the formatting.

no one is doing this; the article mentions 25% female among these. i.e. we
don't include reliable sources even to the extent they present less of a
gap than we do.

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Daniel and Elizabeth Case <
danc...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

> >At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary."
> Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and >online) look
> much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even
> certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, >"death notice"=paid
> ad) is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned
> from the specific papers I dealt with after >my dad died.
>
> Writing as someone who once got paid to write newspaper obits, “paids”
> are, in print, always in [[agate type]], like sports boxscores; obits look
> like any other story in the same newspaper.
>
> However, textwise, the distinction may be blurring as newspapers cut back
> on expenses (such as the newbies and interns who cut their journalistic
> teeth writing obits. Just earlier this week, a young coworker of my wife’s
> died rather suddenly; when I saw his obit in our local paper I figured they
> had just printed the text the funeral home sent along since it read like a
> paid, with all sorts of flowery, non-NPOV language that we never included
> in obits back in the mid-‘90s regardless of what the funeral home said in
> the fax, no mention whatsoever of the cause of death, and mentions of a
> rather wide scope of survivors (the main reason for paids, as families of
> the decedents usually want to mention relatives outside the scope of the
> immediate family that newspapers limit their obits to for space if nothing
> else).
>
> Daniel Case
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Lists of notable deaths of 2015

[J Hayes]

some obits are not behind paywall.
a reference to do list would make good work.

maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article /
category "list of people with obituaries"

cheers


On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf  wrote:

> Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star,
> etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
>
> http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in-death/
>
> The three women listed in the article do have WP articles.  It would take
> some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other
> women do not yet have articles.
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Lists of notable deaths of 2015

[J Hayes]

pete,
the article linked is listing NYTimes, WashPost, and LATimes.
not the paid notices
there seems to be no process to systematically incorporate these, even when
they provide strong support for notability.

cheers

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:15 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> wrote:

> At least in the USA, we have to be cautious about "what is an obituary."
> Newspapers also run "death notices" which (both in print and online) look
> much like obituaries, but are actually paid advertisements. I'm not even
> certain that the terminology ("obituary"=editorial, "death notice"=paid ad)
> is consistent across news outlets, I'm just reflecting what I learned from
> the specific papers I dealt with after my dad died.
>
> Any "systemic bias" in death notices would therefore consider a much
> bigger/more complex system than simply the editorial powers-that-be. You'd
> have to also consider what drives families to pay for death notices for
> some people more than others.
>
> -Pete
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 6:07 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> some obits are not behind paywall.
>> a reference to do list would make good work.
>>
>> maybe we could get Mietchen or Magnus to make an automated list article /
>> category "list of people with obituaries"
>>
>> cheers
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Links to lists in major news outlets (NYT, BBC, LA TImes, Toronto Star,
>>> etc.) along with commentary on gender bias in obits:
>>>
>>> http://forward.com/sisterhood/330631/for-women-gender-bias-continues-even-in-death/
>>>
>>> The three women listed in the article do have WP articles.  It would
>>> take some digging--paywalls, registration, etc,--to see if any of the other
>>> women do not yet have articles.
>>>
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[Gendergap] What Works: Gender Equality, By Design -Harvard Business School

[J Hayes]

http://wappp.hks.harvard.edu/event/wappp-research-seminar-designing-gender-equality-iris-bohnet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEnzI31kNy4=youtu.be=PL9D7F37590143D22E
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Re: [Gendergap] Men’s rights activists think a “hateful” feminist conspiracy is ruining Wikipedia

[J Hayes]

there is a recent blog post about workgroup at Berkman Center for Internet
and Society

https://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/12/03/working-together-on-online-harassment/

this was an old column from last year
the same writer did a nice column recently about the fund raising.



On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:56 AM, Carol Moore dc 
wrote:

> I don't remember seeing this one posted before and it's not in my saved
> emails.
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/08/04/mens-rights-activists-think-a-hateful-feminist-conspiracy-is-ruining-wikipedia/
>
> Funny to find this on first anniversary of day I was banned.
>
> Gee, should I ask to let back in? Not...
>
> I'm waiting for Wikimedia to put some money into hiring professional
> mediators, at least... They got the money...
>
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/12/02/wikipedia-has-a-ton-of-money-so-why-is-it-begging-you-to-donate-yours/
>
> (Today's WashPost article that led to me the feminist conspiracy article.)
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Call for Participation: 2016 Art+Feminism Wikipedia Edit-a-thon

[J Hayes]

yes, sorry we go to "sofixit" reflexively, event organizers are thin on the
ground
National Library of Scotland had a wikipedian in residence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/National_Library_of_Scotland
i would encourage you to get with your local library special collection,
use some of the slidedecks at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/Bookshelf
and i'm sure women in red would be happy to support remotely.

cheers

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 11:42 PM, Pharos 
wrote:

> I think a North of England effort that focused on events and activities to
> expand underrepresented content on Wikipedia would be worthwhile.
>
> Although it is not your main goal, it might be strategically wise to
> launch such a thing in time for the international Art+Feminism campaign in
> March 2016, and then build off of that momentum to take on other
> underrepresented topic areas.
>
> Thanks,
> Pharos
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Marie Earley  wrote:
>
>> There's a comedian / political activist in the UK, Rob Newman,
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Newman_%28comedian%29 who talked
>> about his political activism and how he would talk to other activists,
>> saying, we should do this and that, they would answer, "That's a great
>> idea, why don't you do that?" It's a fair point.
>>
>> The thing is I'm based in the North of England and the last local meet-up
>> had six people sign up to it and three of them added "hopefully I'll be
>> able to make it". I'm not quite sure what sort of attendance a feminism+
>> [whatever] would have up here.*
>>
>> The women in leadership stuff sounds interesting though.
>>
>> Marie
>>
>>
>> > * Please no-one suggest a London edit-a-thon, London-centrism is a pet
>> hate of mine.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:25:48 -0500
>> From: risker...@gmail.com
>> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Call for Participation: 2016 Art+Feminism
>> Wikipedia Edit-a-thon
>>
>>
>> Is that you I see volunteering to organize one, Marie?  :-)
>>
>> I suspect that is the reason, to be honest - nobody specifically taking
>> the bull by the horns.  It requires interest in the subject, and a
>> willingness and ability to organize the events.   Economics is not a
>> particularly popular subject (comparatively speaking) in the Wikipedia
>> world - the entire topic area could use a lot of work, not just the aspects
>> relating to women or feminism - and like anything else, the smaller the
>> number of people participating in a topic area, the less likely there will
>> be individuals who take on the challenge of organizing collaborative
>> events.
>>
>> As to Women in Politics, I think this is probably (at least for women in
>> Western countries) one of the better covered areas, simply because most of
>> our  major language Wikipedias treat all politicians at what they consider
>> to be notable levels of government in pretty much the same way, using
>> essentially standardized formats.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 6 November 2015 at 06:16, Marie Earley  wrote:
>>
>> As much as I like to see an event like this happening, and the Women in
>> Science event, I'm left wondering why there are no similar events for Women
>> in Politics or Economics + Feminism.
>>
>> Marie
>>
>> --
>> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:47:08 -0500
>> From: i...@art.plusfeminism.org
>> To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Subject: [Gendergap] Call for Participation: 2016 Art+Feminism Wikipedia
>> Edit-a-thon
>>
>>
>> Dear Gender gap mailing list members,
>>
>> We are in the process of organizing the third annual international
>> Art+Feminism Wikipedia Edit-a-thon. The New York event will be held at the
>> Dorothy and Lewis B. Cullman Education and Research Building at MoMA on
>> Saturday, March 5, 2016. We are looking for support in the form of
>> participants and suggestions.
>>
>> Last year, over 1500 participants at the Museum of Modern Art in New York
>> and more than 75 node events around the world participated in
>> Art+Feminism’s second annual Wikipedia Edit-a-thon, resulting in the
>> creation of nearly 400 new pages and significant improvements to 500
>> articles on Wikipedia. *Together, we can double those numbers in 2016! *
>>
>> If you’re interested in hosting an edit-a-thon in your city over the
>> weekend of March 4-6, 2016, please be in touch. There are funds available
>> to help node events pay for childcare and refreshments. You can reach us
>> at: i...@art.plusfeminism.org.
>>
>> If you want to help out in other ways, we are also gathering research
>> materials for the March event:
>>
>>
>>- Suggested Topics
>>- Articles needing creation
>>- Articles needing expansion and/or cleanup
>>- Suggestions for online research materials on women and the arts
>>- Any existing documentation you might be willing to share on
>>Wikipedia editing or 

Re: [Gendergap] Request for advice about editathons

[J Hayes]

i agree the trend is low undergraduate attendance if not part of grade

some campus marketing (fliers, partnership with groups seems in order)
but we don't have a handle on it.
major divide between readers and editors seems hard to close.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi GG mailing list and Maria from WMF Eval,
>
> Cascadia Wikimedians ran a series of editathons at the University of
> Washington with themes like "Women and astronomy" and "Women and Health
> Sciences". We did some communications through the University's Facebook
> pages and mailing lists. While we had regular attendance from veteran
> Wikipedians and from university librarians, we had very little attendance
> from current students on campus who we had hoped would attend.
>
> I heard from a female undergraduate that there was buzz and interest on
> campus in what we were doing, but few people took the next step of coming
> to one of our events.
>
> Another comment I heard at Wikiconference USA is that university
> editathons are most successful if there's a current undergraduate on campus
> who is interested and recruits their friends. In the absence of that, the
> university editathon model tends to have mediocre outcomes.
>
> Any suggestions about how to increase attendance if we decide to try this
> again in the future?
>
> Thanks,
> Pine
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Atlantic article..."How Wikipedia is Hostile to Women"

[J Hayes]

the point about dying with a whimper is well taken;
or as Andrew Lih said: become like wikinews, a failed wiki

the librarian who said "cultural buzzsaw", also said, "would not touch
wikipedia with a 10 foot pole."

apparently, the write an article outside wiki to provide negative feedback
to the toxic culture is still on.

you'll excuse me if i work with the smithsonian on their bee metadata
transcription project; wake me when there is some adult supervision.

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> The Signpost has an article, "Women and Wikipedia, the world s watching"
> and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-10-21/Editorial
> and "In the media: Wikipedia's hostility to women"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-10-21/In_the_media
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:
>
>> Hi all -
>>
>> As a further bit of clarification regarding the current arbcom case
>> request (it had not been accepted yet:)
>>
>> 1)  Eric Corbett made a series of statements that Kirill Lokshin, one
>> of our best regarded former arbitrators, regarded as violating his
>> topic bans w/r/t discussion of the gendergap.  Kirill, without
>> resulting to the AE board (which is an explicitly unnecessary step per
>> policy,) blocked Eric Corbett for a period of one month.  The template
>> he used explicitly mentioned that anyone undoing the block without
>> agreement of the original admin, extensive discussion and consensus or
>> by order of the arbitration committee would be summarily desysopped.
>>
>> 2) Yngvadotttir, an administrator who posted an extremely lengthy
>> retirement message around six months ago (but has still been somewhat
>> active) chose to unblock Eric unilaterally and without any sort of
>> discussion, including with Kirill. Yngvadottir was almost immediately
>> desysopped by arbcom under their emergency desysop procedures that are
>> called for in any situation where one admin reverses an arb
>> enforcement decision of another admin (which were reinforced by
>> another recent case that also involved Eric.)  Yngvadottir knew beyond
>> any reasonable doubt that her actions would result in her immediate
>> desysop.
>>
>> 3) Black Kite, another administrator who I feel comfortable stating
>> has a pro-Eric bias (significantly past the point of WP:INVOLVED,)
>> opened an ArbCom case against Kirill for enforcing arbitration
>> remedies against Eric.  I'm not entirely clear on what Black Kite's
>> argument is.  Eric may have a right of reply in terms of speaking to
>> The Atlantic or other media outlets, but past arbcom cases have made
>> it absolutely clear that Eric does not have the ability to discuss
>> issues of gender anywhere on Wikipedia.  Eric himself is perfectly
>> aware of this fact, and has racked up at least seven blocks under the
>> arb remedies against him. BK's main points seem to be that he
>> disagrees with Kirill's exercise of discretion in blocking Eric (since
>> Kirill didn't *have* to block Eric,) but there's no question that
>> Kirill was well within policy to do so, and more broadly, that he
>> disagrees with the fact that Eric is under Arbcom sanctions in the
>> first place (and an arbcom case is not how to appeal Arbcom's past
>> remedies against Eric - Eric can do so himself any time he pleases
>> through a much less involved process.)
>>
>> 4) Eric's block has not been reinstated, but there's currently an arb
>> motion that would only allow him to edit his own userpages and pages
>> related to any ongoing case or case request where he is a named party.
>> This is pretty typical handling of disputed blocks that wind up before
>> arbcom, although Eric has stated he has no intention of participating
>> in any arb request or case about him.  He's also stated that he's
>> leaving Wikipedia.  I don't want to go through his history to count
>> them up, but this is certainly not the first time Eric has said he is
>> leaving Wikipedia only to return.
>>
>> A couple points specifically about this list:
>>
>> a)  I'm uncomfortable about the idea of list discussions that people
>> are likely to shout CANVASSING at, but I am in full support of keeping
>> the list informed of any ongoing developments, since they are directly
>> relevant to the list.  I'm not okay with anything that I consider
>> likely to be libelous under the laws of the state of California (where
>> both WMF and I are located,) or anything that either my own counsel or
>> WMF warns me is likely to be libelous.  However, California's
>> defamation laws make it extremely hard to argue that a statement is
>> defamatory, especially if you're at least a limited purpose public
>> figure (which in this context, Eric is,) so I have trouble imagining a
>> situation where this would come in to play.  Defamation laws in the UK
>> are significantly different, but because of how ridiculous the US
>> legislature has 

Re: [Gendergap] Atlantic article..."How Wikipedia is Hostile to Women"

[J Hayes]

feel free to correct about Clara H. Hasse not Nellie A. Brown, and

there were a handful of women contributors at EB1911
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Author:Agnes_Mary_Clerke
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica/Contributors

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:

> Some journos take corrections easily, and some don't.  I've had people
> directly misquote me at major outlets where I had the call on record
> (with their consent, since CA is a 2 party consent state for recording
> calls,) and refuse to make corrections, and had other people accept my
> corrections at face value and put them in to place.  I may not have
> time to do so today, but would encourage anyone interested (probably
> better if it's only a person or two and not a horde in this case) to
> contact the author of the Atlantic piece about the issues.  Probably
> those directly interviewed by the journalist would be the best
> candidates to put in for a correction.
>
> Best,
> Kevin Gorman
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
> > Good that this story has been told, at last. Overdue.
> >
> > (Minor quibbles: Eric is not an admin, and the New York Times piece was
> not
> > written by a NYT reporter. Corrections possible?)
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for sending this out Carol, you beat me by about two minutes.
> >> I would hugely encourage everyone to read this, and a lot of it also
> >> relates to why it's important that people vote in arbcom election, and
> >> we don't have arbitrators elected with 273 support votes and fewer
> >> than 600 total votes...
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Kevin Gorman
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Carol Moore dc
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/10/how-wikipedia-is-hostile-to-women/411619/
> >> >
> >> > Goes into lots of details...
> >> >
> >> >
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Re: [Gendergap] Video Q discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

[J Hayes]

right,
 here's the tweet from an audience member at a ARL conference
https://twitter.com/LibSkrat/status/651786423138430976

it is quoted on one of fuzheado's slides.


On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have posted a transcript of the Q portion:
> https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-harassment-speech-qa/
> and added links to the documents referenced.
>
> @Fae thanks for the link, I didn't know you could link to a specific point
> in a video
> @J Hayes "cultural buzzsaw" tweet?
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:08 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> yes,
>> nice for arbcom to see how they are perceived
>>
>> and Andrew Lih mentioned the "cultural buzzsaw" tweet for importance of
>> fixing culture as one of the things wikipedia must do.
>>
>> this was for an audience of the US powers that be; it will be interesting
>> to see the impact on future conduct.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that was an interesting Q - I was familiar with most of the
>>> material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here
>>> before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the
>>> number of comments/questions.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Links:
>>>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4=85m30s
>>>> 2.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments_on_ArbCom_and_gender
>>>>
>>>> Folks may be interested in watching the Q session at the recent
>>>> WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about
>>>> 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is
>>>> perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of
>>>> harassment of significant concern for our community.
>>>>
>>>> This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be
>>>> interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public
>>>> comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom
>>>> currently works, or not.
>>>>
>>>> Fae
>>>> --
>>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Gendergap] Video Q discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

[J Hayes]

yes, notice crickets on talk page

you could be dismissive of the questions as the usual "gender gap cabal",
but when andrew lih says that is the perception of the culture among
library professionals, and it needs to change,
you would think good faith arbs would sit up and take notice.

but as DGG says: "I hate to disillusion you, but not only is arb com very
unlikely to eve[n] initiate anything, but it will not even commit itself to
support anything"





On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Kevin Gorman  wrote:

> I've been out of touch with the world for most of the last week, but
> I'm extremely disappointed to see the only active arbitrator to
> comment on that discussion so far just asked for a tl;dr when given a
> two hour long video of free advice from a leading expert in online
> harassment issues.  Almost every case arb takes deals with harassment
> in one form or another - given the time they spend discussing
> trivialities, let alone drafting cases and on private lists, I would
> hope that no arbitrator (none of the sitting ones have formal training
> in dealing with online harrassment, AFAIK, although I may be missing
> someone) would refuse to spend a much smaller amount of time hearing
> one of the top experts n the subject talk about it.  If you can't
> accept a two hour time committment, you probably shouldn't be an arb.
>
> 
> Kevin Gorman
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:55 AM, Fæ  wrote:
> > Links:
> > 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4=85m30s
> > 2.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments_on_ArbCom_and_gender
> >
> > Folks may be interested in watching the Q session at the recent
> > WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about
> > 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is
> > perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of
> > harassment of significant concern for our community.
> >
> > This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be
> > interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public
> > comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom
> > currently works, or not.
> >
> > Fae
> > --
> > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >
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Re: [Gendergap] Video Q discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

[J Hayes]

yes, lambs to the slaughter
echoing andrew lih,
i have been to a few wiki loves libraries
and all the librarians are aware of the toxic culture
but the militant ones are biding their time
for the takeover.
i was questioning DGG about some librarian ethics
but he dismissed them.

also about the "political moment" response
we need to start recruiting candidates for arbcom now.
i asked Rosiestep <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rosiestep> , but she
demurred
can't say i blame her.


On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "...now pitching the idea that ARL libraries take over editing chunks of
> Wikipedia..." It does sound like a remake of Bambi Meets Godzilla.
>
> Wonder how that would go over in Canada--looks like they have a number of
> ARL libraries http://www.arl.org/membership#.ViU1omtAeKI  Sounds like the
> kind of thing LAC might regards as a “high risk” activity.
> http://o.canada.com/news/national/federal-librarians-fear-being-muzzled-under-new-code-of-conduct
> And there is already an old code of conduct that mentions diversity and
> harassment.
> http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/about-us/Pages/code-conduct-value-ethics.aspx#h
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:52 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> right,
>>  here's the tweet from an audience member at a ARL conference
>> https://twitter.com/LibSkrat/status/651786423138430976
>>
>> it is quoted on one of fuzheado's slides.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have posted a transcript of the Q portion:
>>> https://neotarf.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/danielle-citrons-wikicon-online-harassment-speech-qa/
>>> and added links to the documents referenced.
>>>
>>> @Fae thanks for the link, I didn't know you could link to a specific
>>> point in a video
>>> @J Hayes "cultural buzzsaw" tweet?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:08 PM, J Hayes <slowki...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> yes,
>>>> nice for arbcom to see how they are perceived
>>>>
>>>> and Andrew Lih mentioned the "cultural buzzsaw" tweet for importance of
>>>> fixing culture as one of the things wikipedia must do.
>>>>
>>>> this was for an audience of the US powers that be; it will be
>>>> interesting to see the impact on future conduct.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that was an interesting Q - I was familiar with most of the
>>>>> material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here
>>>>> before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the
>>>>> number of comments/questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Links:
>>>>>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4=85m30s
>>>>>> 2.
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments_on_ArbCom_and_gender
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Folks may be interested in watching the Q session at the recent
>>>>>> WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about
>>>>>> 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is
>>>>>> perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of
>>>>>> harassment of significant concern for our community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be
>>>>>> interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public
>>>>>> comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom
>>>>>> currently works, or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ___
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>>>>>> please visit:
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>>>>>
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[Gendergap] guardian: abuse is still the name of the game

[J Hayes]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/oct/11/female-technology-journalists-abuse-zoe-quinn?CMP=twt_a-media_b-gdnmedia
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Re: [Gendergap] Video Q discussing Arbcom and gender/orientation harassment cases

[J Hayes]

yes,
nice for arbcom to see how they are perceived

and Andrew Lih mentioned the "cultural buzzsaw" tweet for importance of
fixing culture as one of the things wikipedia must do.

this was for an audience of the US powers that be; it will be interesting
to see the impact on future conduct.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jane Darnell  wrote:

> Yes, that was an interesting Q - I was familiar with most of the
> material discussed in the talk (and a lot of it has been discussed here
> before), but I was surprised by the emotional response afterwards and the
> number of comments/questions.
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Fæ  wrote:
>
>> Links:
>> 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-Y-FuzAH4=85m30s
>> 2.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee#Comments_on_ArbCom_and_gender
>>
>> Folks may be interested in watching the Q session at the recent
>> WikiConference USA where gender and harassment was discussed for about
>> 45 minutes.[1] It makes for an interesting summary of how Arbcom is
>> perceived with regard to handling harassment cases, and the types of
>> harassment of significant concern for our community.
>>
>> This has been raised on the Arbcom noticeboard[2], it will be
>> interesting to see how many current Arbcom members make a public
>> comment, or indeed if they are perfectly happy with the way Arbcom
>> currently works, or not.
>>
>> Fae
>> --
>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>
>> ___
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>> visit:
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>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[J Hayes]

rupert,
i and carol have a somewhat different experience with the police. it is
unclear if i would trust them to keep identity confidential. WMF should act
regardless of legal status. this merry go round of not providing clear
lines of responsibility and action (other than round file) is part of the
systemic problem.

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 4:07 PM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

> risker you are joking? a death threat is a case for the police not for the
> wikimedia foundation. wikimedia foundation is not a para-military or
> para-police organization replacing standard legal systems, the wikimedia
> community is also not a community outside other legal systems, with special
> rules applying. the police has the means to deal with it professionally.
>
> carol, if you get a death threat, why are you afraid of the police? you
> pay taxes and at the end of the day you are paying their salary, and are
> usually very welcoming?
>
> rupert
>
> On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 9:05 PM, Risker  wrote:
>
>> The WMF may or may not help editors who are receiving death threats via
>> their email systems - I'd venture to guess that in the majority of cases
>> they're handled by admins or CUs or arbitrators by the expedient of
>> blocking the accounts with email turned off.  If you're saying you really
>> don't want police involved, then I don't know what you'd expect the WMF to
>> do over and above blocking the same accounts and the same IPs that can (and
>> often are) blocked by volunteers.
>>
>> I do not suggest that harassment via email (up to and including serious
>> death threats) is a minor matter, but that the "emerge...@wikimedia.org"
>> is for threats of harm to self or others that are published onwiki where
>> there is concern that police or other authorities should be informed
>> because there is an imminent risk of harm. Keep in mind that that email
>> address is staffed by a grand total of six people (the Community Advocacy
>> team) to cover the entire world.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>>
>> On 26 September 2015 at 13:59, Carol Moore dc 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was referring to threats to kill someone that clearly come from a
>>> known Wikipedia handle or editor, or, as in my case, a person who is known
>>> because it's the same kind of message they have been known to send to
>>> various others many times before.
>>>
>>> In my case threats were sent through Wikimedia Foundation email and
>>> evidently that's what this person - and perhaps others - enjoys doing. At
>>> the very least advice to contact the Foundation also should cover such
>>> abuses. (Obviously if it's an anonymous person through another email
>>> system, it's a different issue. Though I believe the Foundation was happy
>>> to help Sitush when he was getting those kind of messages.)
>>>
>>> As an activist I'm reluctant to deal with authorities unless it is VERY
>>> real and imminent. Those who want to report it would assume their only
>>> recourse is to go straight to the police who then will be the ones going to
>>> the Foundation to sort it out.
>>>
>>> That is the specific issue I was addressing and the person who does that
>>> evidently is back to doing it, so perhaps others are doing it too and women
>>> are just quitting Wikipedia without telling anyone why.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/26/2015 12:27 PM, Risker wrote:
>>>
 Neotarf is correct, it is the guideline to address suicide threats and
 similar threats of serious harm to self or others (e.g., "I'm going to
 go shoot up my school")  - in other words, that guideline is intended to
 capture situations where there is a reason to contact police or similar
 authorities because of an imminent threat to safety.  The person adding
 the link probably did not really read through the point of the page.
 Speaking personally, I'd be pretty offended if I complained that someone
 was harassing me and was linked to a page about reporting suicide
 threats. Note that one of the shortcuts is [[WP:SUICIDE]].

 I have removed that as a "Main article" because it's not really about
 harassment.

 Risker/Anne

 On 26 September 2015 at 11:52, Neotarf > wrote:

 @Carol Moore, I believe that link is about suicide threats.  Did you
 mean to link to something else?

 On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Carol Moore dc
 > wrote:

 Because of an offline discussion about the 1000 odd death
 threats I got directly through the Wikimedia Foundation email
 system and my failure to remember personally contacting them (as
 opposed to admins) about it, I decided to see if the Harassment
 article mentioned that option.

 I did a little research and found it was not til July 22, 2015

Re: [Gendergap] Signpost article on English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics... etc...

[J Hayes]

a section on DD is all you need to know about wikipedia.

i see no mention on Red Scare; Sputnik; or
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Society_for_the_Suppression_of_Vice

needs a complete rewrite, but won't be happening any time soon.

On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Meanwhile... have you seen the article on moral panic
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic lately? Particularly the
 US-centric examples section?

 How many refs does one example need?

 Marie

 --
 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2015 00:17:48 -0400
 From: slowki...@gmail.com
 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Signpost article on English Wikipedia's
 misogynist infopolitics... etc...


 clearly he needs an invite to
 wikiconference USA

 maybe a paper presentation
 http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/Category:Submissions/2015

 On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
  wrote:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-08-19/Op-ed

 Op-ed
 WP:THREATENING2MEN: The English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics and
 the hegemony of the asshole consensus
 By Bryce Peake

 Check it out...



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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost article on English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics... etc...

[J Hayes]

clearly he needs an invite to
wikiconference USA

maybe a paper presentation
http://wikiconferenceusa.org/wiki/Category:Submissions/2015

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-08-19/Op-ed

 Op-ed
 WP:THREATENING2MEN: The English Wikipedia's misogynist infopolitics and
 the hegemony of the asshole consensus
 By Bryce Peake

 Check it out...



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Re: [Gendergap] Outcome of IdeaLab/Inspire campaign

[J Hayes]

i agree not coding
especially with visual editor

i look at it as another tool in the box for social media outreach
for archivists and librarians and digital humanists
pushing content to where researchers can find it.

also broad principles of crowd sourcing, and open source software of crowd
sourcing
organizations use media wiki for internal wikis, and use crowd sourcing for
transcription on their own site.



On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Christine Meyer christinewme...@gmail.com
wrote:

 You make some good points, Ellie.  However, it's been my experience that
 even a basic knowledge of HTML helped me learn Wiki syntax.  I am by no
 means a coder, although I am married to one.  Perhaps a better way to frame
 it is that learning Wiki syntax can help you learn to code easier?

 Christine
 User:Figureskatingfan

 On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Ellie K myindigol...@gmail.com wrote:

 I read Marie Earley's message about the Inspire campaign, and
 specifically about the Pinterest-related proposal.  I was interested in the
 Pinterest proposal too!  I use Pinterest for fun. As far as I know, I was
 the only one to endorse it (I am FeralOink on WP, Ellie Kesselman IRL).

 Marie said this in her message on the GenderGap mailing list:

 ​​
 If the pitch to women were learn code by editing Wikipedia then I
 think there would be a greater take up...
 ​​


 Yes, I agree that there would be a lot of interest from women if that
 were true. However, editing Wikipedia and learning to code have nothing to
 do with each other. Learning Wiki syntax for editing is something that can
 take bona fide programmers a (brief) while to learn, as it is markup with
 many additional Mediawiki-specific features. More to the point, Wiki syntax
 isn't a programming language, nor does it closely resemble HTML or CSS,
 which are not programming languages either. The only people who code on
 Wikipedia are the Wikidata folks and those who build utilities (many in
 Python, I think) for whatever the toolserver is called now. Most Wikipedia
 editors are not going to have any interaction with these few folks, nor any
 means to learn the skills they have.

 I'm sorry for sounding negative, but I don't want to mislead women into
 thinking they will learn a job skill like programming (coding) by editing
 Wikipedia. There are many other things one may learn by editing Wikipedia,
 but they aren't so easy to articulate and vary by individual.

 --Ellie Kesselman (FeralOink)

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 --
 Christine
 
 Christine W. Meyer
 christinewme...@gmail.com
 208/310-1549

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Re: [Gendergap] Article: Wikipedia trolls now vs. women architects

[J Hayes]

maybe a note to leigh themadattar User:Thelmadatter?

who was mentioned in a blog
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2015/04/13/wiki-learning-edit-a-thon-mexico/

good reason to go to wikimania


On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Neotarf neot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Does anyone know what's going on with the Spanish Wikipedia?  The last two
 articles I created, of Laxmi_Aggarwal and Maha Al Muneef--women who have
 been awarded the International Women of Courage Award--have been nominated
 for speedy deletion as not being encyclopedic. See my talk page
 http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario_discusi%C3%B3n:Neotarf.  My
 article on the award itself http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujer_coraje
 remains untouched, but you can see the only articles that remain as blue
 links are of Hispanic women.

 On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 4:22 AM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 Interesting, thanks for the links! We also now have mix-n-match and
 Charles Matthews has matched the complete Oxford Dictionary of National
 Biography, With autolist I could probably look at those male-female ratios
 per occupation. Might be interesting. I don't know how to get at the
 deleted  recreated data though

 On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Joseph Reagle joseph.2...@reagle.org
 wrote:

 On 04/13/2015 01:18 PM, Jane Darnell wrote:
  Actually I think it would be useful to measure all existing female bios
  vs all existing male bios for the proportion of those which have been
  previously deleted and recreated. I have a theory that it is much more
  difficult to create bios of females in whatever category due to the
  systemic academic bias aginst including women's biographies in the list
  of reliable sources mostly used in Wikipedia. I would be especially
  interested in comparison of male-female ration of bios in established
  dictionaries of biography and how these compare to Wikipedia, and of
  those, how many such bios were previously deleted on Wikipedia and
  recreated.

 Hi Jane, I've done comparative work on coverage bias in biographies
 between WP and Britannica [1]. I've also shared my data [2] with an
 author of [3] who is extending that  analysis to include structural,
 lexical, and visibility bias. I think addressing deletion and recreation
 wouldn't be too hard...

 [1]: http://ijoc.org/index.php/ijoc/article/view/777/631
 [2]: http://reagle.org/joseph/2010/06/gender/results
 [3]: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.06307v1.pdf

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Re: [Gendergap] Article: Wikipedia trolls now vs. women architects

[J Hayes]

i also collected some anecdotal data about deletions and speedy deletions
of MacArthur Fellows.
you could study differential deletions of them or Fellows of the Royal
Society.

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote:

 Emilio - thanks for the reminder of that excellent page!

 On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a theory that it is much more difficult to create bios of females
 in whatever category due to the systemic academic bias aginst including
 women's biographies in the list of reliable sources mostly used in
 Wikipedia. I would be especially interested in comparison of male-female
 ration of bios in established dictionaries of biography and how these
 compare to Wikipedia, and of those, how many such bios were previously
 deleted on Wikipedia and recreated.


 Agreed.  I think one of the most effective ways to counter this sort of
 systemic bias is to find dictionaries of biography  encyclopedic histories
 of women and digitize them / make them available to editors. Those sources
 often do exist, though they are less commonly known or available online.
 We have a decent reason for them to relicense those works, especially if we
 can more actively help with the digitization as a result.

 It would be a small but precise blow against systemic bias to say the
 following areas have historical  reporting bias; so we make extra effort
 to find and recognize additional sources, and vary criteria in inverse
 proportion to that bias.

 Sam


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Re: [Gendergap] Article: Wikipedia trolls now vs. women architects

[J Hayes]

t think they were referring to this deletion discussion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Pia_Ednie-Brown

and this declined AfC
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jennifer_Taylor_%28architect%29oldid=650496415

the list shows a lot of positive work done


On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Rob gamali...@gmail.com wrote:

 Can anyone point to where this troll behavior happened? There don't seem
 to be a lot of specifics in this article, and I'm wondering if it's gender
 trolls (which are, alas, plentiful) or a culture clash between old editors
 and new ones over unfamiliar policies?

 On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
 wrote:

 On 4/10/2015 6:33 PM, Siko Bouterse wrote:

 This is the grant proposal referenced at the end of that article
 (currently under review as part of Inspire):
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/More_
 Female_Architects_on_Wikipedia

  I remember NOT commenting on that one because I figured, who could have
 a problem with that?

 How soon we forget that getting MORE women articles and editors was and
 remains controversial.

 Banging head vs. wall


 CM


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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and Feminism.

[J Hayes]

nice wiki-splaining - the problem with your thesis:


*What we don't need, however, is more feminists.*
is labeling and the double standard of civility enforcement

as Djembayz said at Signpost:
the rules on Wikipedia are not clear, the enforcement on disruptive
behavior is arbitrary or non-existent. Online game players, vulgarians, and
sea-lioning http://simplikation.com/why-sealioning-is-bad/ randos who
congregate here can be as disruptive and outrageous as they wish, with
impunity. They don't care, because they don't have to.

until the systemic bias in civility enforcement is dealt with, your
thesis will be a dead letter with me.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Sydney Poore sydney.po...@gmail.com
wrote:

 This part of the we of Wikipedians...me..wants feminist to edit
 Wikipedia, as well as people who want to solely add articles about women.

 What I ask of you is to stand back so that those of us who are interested
 in creating an inclusive editing community can do so without being
 hindered. Because there is simply no way that Wikipedia's content can be
 neutral without a large and inclusive body of people creating it.

 Warm regards,
 Sydney Poore
 User:FloNight
 On Apr 9, 2015 10:27 AM, Lukas Mezger (Wikipedia) 
 lukas.mez...@wikipedia.de wrote:

 Dear readers of the gender gap mailing list,

 My name is Lukas and I am a German Wikipedian (User:Gnom).

 I recently wrote a blog post on Wikipedia and feminism
 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Gnom/Blog#2_April_2015:_A_blog_post_on_Wikipedia_and_feminism.
 and was encouraged to share it with this list.

 As I am very new to the gender gap debate, I would appreciate your
 comments.
 Regards,

 Lukas Mezger

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Re: [Gendergap] Random musings about a bot

[J Hayes]

you can also do a bot request here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bot_requests

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 10:09 PM, JJ Marr jjm...@gmail.com wrote:

 You should ask down at the village pump, then if the response is
 favorable, start a BRFA.
 On Feb 24, 2015 10:04 PM, Maia Weinstock mai...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all,

 There have been numerous discussions among folks in the space exploration
 community that use of the word manned and unmanned in Wikipedia is
 outdated and gender-biased. Unfortunately, going in and fixing all of these
 by hand would be rather labor-intensive...

 Someone recently created a browser plugin that replaces manned with
 crewed. (See https://twitter.com/mcnees/status/570409472818061312) It
 would be such an awesome thing if a bot existed that updated these
 instances for real on English Wikipedia. Anyone have ideas for making this
 happen, perhaps just limiting it to space exploration? I do see some issues
 with it being done wholesale for the whole site, as certain terms might
 contain terminology that would create confusion if changed automatically.
 (For instance, unmanned aerial vehicles, for better or for worse, is a
 known term that I wouldn't advocate changing at this time.)

 Anyway, just thinking out loud...

 Maia (user:Girona7)



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[Gendergap] Workplace Bias Could Be Alienating Valuable STEM Talent

[J Hayes]

http://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/newsroom/newsn/3431?utm_source=twitterutm_medium=cpcutm_content=STEMutm_campaign=emba
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Re: [Gendergap] Regular editathons in Sweden about women and literature

[J Hayes]

yes, Wikimedia DC was using some opt in tracking of editathons outcomes.
and reporting activity in annual report
http://wikimediadc.org/wiki/Annual_report_%282012%E2%80%932013%29

there are some case studies at GLAM wiki
https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/GLAM/Case_studies/Archives_of_American_Art/2014_Update

but the evaluation team has the tools and methods
they have a portal
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2014/08/29/evaluation-portal-on-meta-a-redesigned-space-for-learning/

jim hayes


On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson 
l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I think that the evaluation team are working on other tools as well, but I
 am not sure. We haven't used their tools for our editathons, although they
 are probably better than our self-edited stats, since our goal is also to
 have fun :-)


 Best wishes,

 Lennart Guldbrandsson

 070 - 207 80 05
 http://www.*elementx*.se http://www.elementx.se
 *Skriv som ett proffs http://www.elementx.se/skriv-som-ett-proffs/* -
 min senaste bok
 Få regelbundna skrivtips direkt till din inkorg
 http://elementx.us7.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=ab2080465c6cd11b5b253f940id=8a2b974a62

 @aliasHannibal http://twitter.com/AliasHannibal - på Twitter

 *Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri
 tillgång till **världens samlade kunskap*
 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Huvudsida*. Det är vårt mål.*
 Jimmy Wales

 --
 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 14:49:23 +0100

 From: jane...@gmail.com
 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Regular editathons in Sweden about women and
 literature

 Thanks! I was told we are using some tools internally to track specific
 edit-a-thon outcomes - is this what you mean? We want to track more than
 just edit-a-thon outcomes though

 On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Lennart Guldbrandsson 
 l_guldbrands...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Very cool! Good luck to you. Just a quick response to the first question:

 I definitely think it's doable to get 5 editors to stay on for 5 months.
 The evaluation team should be able to help you with tools and guides to
 measure this.

 My advice is to use the person-to-person method. That is, you invite a few
 female friends. Some will find it interesting. Make sure that it's a
 friendly space they come to. And some will come back. If you're a few
 regular people doing this, 5 should be on the low side for the Netherlands.
 We have about done it in Sweden without much effort, and with a little
 effort we could make it 10 (it's just been a busy time for me and a few
 others in the regular group).




 Best wishes,

 Lennart Guldbrandsson

 070 - 207 80 05
 http://www.*elementx*.se http://www.elementx.se
 *Skriv som ett proffs http://www.elementx.se/skriv-som-ett-proffs/* -
 min senaste bok
 Få regelbundna skrivtips direkt till din inkorg
 http://elementx.us7.list-manage1.com/subscribe?u=ab2080465c6cd11b5b253f940id=8a2b974a62

 @aliasHannibal http://twitter.com/AliasHannibal - på Twitter

 *Tänk dig en värld där varje människa på den här planeten får fri
 tillgång till **världens samlade kunskap*
 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Huvudsida*. Det är vårt mål.*
 Jimmy Wales

 --
 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:43:58 +0100
 From: jane...@gmail.com
 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Regular editathons in Sweden about women and
 literature

 Hi Lennart and others,
 We had a short meeting yesterday in Utrecht to discuss the Gendergap and
 also our plans for the upcoming Art  Feminism weekend of 7  8 March.
 Wikimedia Netherlands will co-host an edit-a-thon at the Amsterdam
 Stedelijk Museum and we also plan to host an international writing
 challenge lasting the entire weekend, directed at experienced challenge
 writers. Since WMNL has also set aside some funding for Gendergap this
 year, we were also talking about other plans. One thing that we decided to
 do is to set aside one Wiki-Saturday per month for the Gendergap in all
 of its Wiki(p/m)edia aspects, but with the emphasis on the social side of
 things as an in-person meetup. We will be announcing the Saturday meetups
 in the Stedelijk venue.

 Based on our meeting, I have done some searching around and have the
 following questions:
 1) I was wondering if anyone had any measurable outcomes for such an
 investment of time and funds? We tentatively had a year-target of
 attracting 5 new women editors that remain active for at least 5 months. I
 have doubts whether this is measurable or even realistic.
 Thoughts anyone?
 2) I noticed that though we seem to have lots of women artists on
 Wikipedia, we are still missing articles about their artworks or  list
 articles of their artworks. In a category on the English Wikipedia for
 Lists of works of art I noted an odd mish-mash of lists which include
 lists of works by 66 men and only 4 women (I just created the list for
 Judith Leyster and hope to make list articles for two more Dutch women
 

Re: [Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

[J Hayes]

well, they did not revdel it.
arbcom can drive the  discussion off wiki,
but cannot ban the Guardian for bad journalism
certain account behaviors are being favored
you should expect to see a lot more of those behaviors in the future

this will necessitate a lot of wiki-splaining

thank-you arbcom for firing up every up coming feminist editathon
you may not care how how you are perceived,
but the negative blowback will tarnish all of wikimedia

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:06 AM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org
wrote:

 The rediculous thing is that none of the people defending that article
 were 'feminists'. They were just defending the mainstream point of view
 from an endless onslaught of 8channers. The feminist point view isn't even
 represented in the article.

 On Jan 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, J Hayes slowki...@gmail.com wrote:


 http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy


 http://internet.gawker.com/wikipedia-purged-a-group-of-feminist-editors-because-of-1681463331/+cushac


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[Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

[J Hayes]

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy

http://internet.gawker.com/wikipedia-purged-a-group-of-feminist-editors-because-of-1681463331/+cushac
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[Gendergap] Woman in a WikiWorld

[J Hayes]

HASTAC blog post

http://www.hastac.org/blogs/alicia-pileggi/2015/01/16/woman-wikiworld-0
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[Gendergap] No-Kanye Rule - How Not to Be ‘Manterrupted’ in Meetings

[J Hayes]

http://time.com/3666135/sheryl-sandberg-talking-while-female-manterruptions/
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[Gendergap] The Secret to Smart Groups Isn't Smart People—It's Women

[J Hayes]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/01/the-secret-to-smart-groups-isnt-smart-people/384625/
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Re: [Gendergap] Diversity training for functionaries. In London?

[J Hayes]

i concur
we need to be open to people, and team with them based on conduct
this remark tends to play into the negative stereotype, which is not what
we are about.



On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Leigh Honeywell le...@hypatia.ca wrote:

 Tim, this kind ofsnippiness is inappropriate and unhelpful. I'll be
 unsubscribing you from the list.


 On Sunday, January 18, 2015, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 [Jonathan Cardy wrote:] I have no problem arranging the room,
 putting up a geonotice and being an attendee.

 It seems to me that Jonathan is a little unclear with Lightbreather's
 concept

 You are male. You make safe spaces unsafe by your very existence. You
 are not welcome. Go away.

 Sorry, well-meaning paternalistic friend, you just don't have the right
 chromosomes to play.


 Tim Davenport
 Corvallis, OR
 Corvallis, OR USA



 =

 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 22:43:52 +
 From: WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com
 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
 participation   of women within Wikimedia projects.
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Diversity training for functionaries. In
 London?
 Message-ID: c1e74568-d89b-4462-88ff-b21063c6e...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

 It would be very easy for us to host a two hour session in London on a
 weekday evening at the UK offices. I am fairly sure we could get a bunch of
 admins and others to attend, aside from some of the London regulars who
 have agreed in principle, a geonotice would likely attract more.

 I have no problem arranging the room, putting up a geonotice and being an
 attendee. However I would need a volunteer to run the session. That isn't
 just because I'm the wrong gender to run such an event, but at the moment I
 don't know what changes in behaviour you would be hoping to train people
 into.

 Regards

 Jonathan Cardy



 --
 Leigh Honeywell
 http://hypatia.ca
 @hypatiadotca

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