Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Shu Fai Cheung]

Please pardon me if I suggest something unrelated below. Many experts
have made suggestions that I would also like to consider because I
also have a similar issue with some packages.

This is an approach I found, for Rmarkdown vignettes:

https://www.kloppenborg.ca/2021/06/long-running-vignettes/

This is similar to some of the suggestions. The vignette is rendered
locally. It uses the trick that, If we render the vignette by calling
knitr::knit() directly, the extension of the source file does not
matter. The output, although with the extension ".Rmd", actually
contains the results of the code, in chunks starting with "```r", not
"```{r}".

When this pre-buiult .Rmd file is built again, it will just convert
the file to an HTML file, with no need to rerun the code.

The method uses an extension for the source Rmd file (".orig" in the
post) to make sure the "real" source files are ignored when building
the vignettes.

Perhaps this is also a feasible solution for long running vignettes?

Regards,
Shu Fai

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 6:51 AM John Fox  wrote:
>
> Dear John,
>
> Unless I'm mistaken, the *installation* time of the package isn't really
> at issue. If a user installs a package from a tarball provided by CRAN,
> the vignettes aren't normally rebuilt.
>
> Best,
>   John
>
> On 2023-10-17 6:30 p.m., John Harrold wrote:
> > Caution: External email.
> >
> >
> > I ask myself the question: Who is the vignette for?  It does server two
> > purposes. One is testing but primarily it's for the users to learn how to
> > use a package. I think the testing is secondary, and if it slows down
> > installation or general usability I'd sacrifice the testing. If it's that
> > important, then the tests can be added explicitly in tests/.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 3:04 PM Dirk Eddelbuettel  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 18 October 2023 at 08:51, Simon Urbanek wrote:
> >> | John,
> >> |
> >> | the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).
> >>
> >> Not exactly. Everything is under our (i.e. package author) control, and
> >> when
> >> we want to replace 'computed' values with cached values we can.
> >>
> >> All this is somewhat of a charade. "Of course" we want vignettes to run
> >> tests. But then we don't want to fall over random missing .sty files or
> >> fonts
> >> (macOS machines have been less forgiving than others), not to mention
> >> compile
> >> time.
> >>
> >> So for simplicity I often pre-make pdf vignettes that get included in other
> >> latex code as source. Works great, never fails, CRAN never complained --
> >> which is somewhat contrary to your statement.
> >>
> >> It is effectively the same with tests. We all want maximum test surfaces.
> >> But
> >> when tests fail, or when they run too long, or [insert many other reasons
> >> here] so many packages run tests conditionally.  Such is life.
> >>
> >> Dirk
> >>
> >>
> >> | However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies
> >> allow long-running vignettes if they declared.
> >> |
> >> | Cheers,
> >> | Simon
> >> |
> >> |
> >> | > On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
> >> | >
> >> | > Hello Dirk,
> >> | >
> >> | > Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
> >> | >
> >> | > No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
> >> the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is
> >> that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something
> >> else, specifically using R.rsp.
> >> | >
> >> | > Best,
> >> | > John
> >> | >
> >> | > On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> >> | >> Caution: External email.
> >> | >> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
> >> | >> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the
> >> R.rsp
> >> | >> | package.
> >> | >> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave.
> >> Described in
> >> | >> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of
> >> packages
> >> | >> including a few of mine.
> >> | >> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and
> >> cached
> >> | >> results myself.
> >> | >> Dirk
> >> | >> --
> >> | >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
> >> | >> __
> >> | >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> >> | >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> >> | >
> >> | > __
> >> | > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> >> | > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> >> | >
> >> |
> >> | __
> >> | R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> >> | https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> >>
> >> --
> >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
> >>
> >> __
> >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> >> 

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problem with "additional repository".

[Uwe Ligges]

It was 0.0-20 that had another issue now explained privately. 0.0-21 
passes cleanly.


Best,
Uwe

On 17.10.2023 20:45, Ivan Krylov wrote:

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 17:08:28 +0200
Uwe Ligges  wrote:


I do not know which package this refers to, so cannot easily look.


This seems to be about the eglhmm package. It seems to pass --as-cran
checks on my machine, but I know it's not the full set of checks
performed for new packages.



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Re: [R-pkg-devel] CMD check: Examples vs DEPENDS pkg

[Uwe Ligges]

On 17.10.2023 21:34, Leonard Mada via R-package-devel wrote:

Dear List members,

Package Rpdf depends on package rgl. Multiple examples will call 
internally the rgl package to visualize the pdb molecule.


When performing the CMD check:
1) Is the rgl package loaded each time anew for any of those examples?

2) If this is the case:
Is it possible to load it only once per CMD check?



Typically it is loaded once for the examples, once for each test file 
and once for each vignette that uses it.


Best,
Uwe Ligges



Sincerely,

Leonard

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Fox]

Dear John,

Unless I'm mistaken, the *installation* time of the package isn't really 
at issue. If a user installs a package from a tarball provided by CRAN, 
the vignettes aren't normally rebuilt.


Best,
 John

On 2023-10-17 6:30 p.m., John Harrold wrote:

Caution: External email.


I ask myself the question: Who is the vignette for?  It does server two
purposes. One is testing but primarily it's for the users to learn how to
use a package. I think the testing is secondary, and if it slows down
installation or general usability I'd sacrifice the testing. If it's that
important, then the tests can be added explicitly in tests/.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 3:04 PM Dirk Eddelbuettel  wrote:



On 18 October 2023 at 08:51, Simon Urbanek wrote:
| John,
|
| the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).

Not exactly. Everything is under our (i.e. package author) control, and
when
we want to replace 'computed' values with cached values we can.

All this is somewhat of a charade. "Of course" we want vignettes to run
tests. But then we don't want to fall over random missing .sty files or
fonts
(macOS machines have been less forgiving than others), not to mention
compile
time.

So for simplicity I often pre-make pdf vignettes that get included in other
latex code as source. Works great, never fails, CRAN never complained --
which is somewhat contrary to your statement.

It is effectively the same with tests. We all want maximum test surfaces.
But
when tests fail, or when they run too long, or [insert many other reasons
here] so many packages run tests conditionally.  Such is life.

Dirk


| However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies
allow long-running vignettes if they declared.
|
| Cheers,
| Simon
|
|
| > On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
| >
| > Hello Dirk,
| >
| > Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
| >
| > No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is
that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something
else, specifically using R.rsp.
| >
| > Best,
| > John
| >
| > On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
| >> Caution: External email.
| >> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| >> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the
R.rsp
| >> | package.
| >> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave.
Described in
| >> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of
packages
| >> including a few of mine.
| >> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and
cached
| >> results myself.
| >> Dirk
| >> --
| >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
| >> __
| >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| >
| > __
| > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| >
|
| __
| R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Duncan Murdoch]

And if the vignette claims to help the users, but contains errors?  Then 
it's not very helpful at all.  That's what the testing is there to detect.


Duncan Murdoch

On 17/10/2023 6:30 p.m., John Harrold wrote:

I ask myself the question: Who is the vignette for?  It does server two
purposes. One is testing but primarily it's for the users to learn how to
use a package. I think the testing is secondary, and if it slows down
installation or general usability I'd sacrifice the testing. If it's that
important, then the tests can be added explicitly in tests/.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 3:04 PM Dirk Eddelbuettel  wrote:



On 18 October 2023 at 08:51, Simon Urbanek wrote:
| John,
|
| the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).

Not exactly. Everything is under our (i.e. package author) control, and
when
we want to replace 'computed' values with cached values we can.

All this is somewhat of a charade. "Of course" we want vignettes to run
tests. But then we don't want to fall over random missing .sty files or
fonts
(macOS machines have been less forgiving than others), not to mention
compile
time.

So for simplicity I often pre-make pdf vignettes that get included in other
latex code as source. Works great, never fails, CRAN never complained --
which is somewhat contrary to your statement.

It is effectively the same with tests. We all want maximum test surfaces.
But
when tests fail, or when they run too long, or [insert many other reasons
here] so many packages run tests conditionally.  Such is life.

Dirk


| However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies
allow long-running vignettes if they declared.
|
| Cheers,
| Simon
|
|
| > On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
| >
| > Hello Dirk,
| >
| > Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
| >
| > No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is
that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something
else, specifically using R.rsp.
| >
| > Best,
| > John
| >
| > On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
| >> Caution: External email.
| >> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| >> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the
R.rsp
| >> | package.
| >> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave.
Described in
| >> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of
packages
| >> including a few of mine.
| >> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and
cached
| >> results myself.
| >> Dirk
| >> --
| >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
| >> __
| >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| >
| > __
| > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| >
|
| __
| R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Harrold]

I ask myself the question: Who is the vignette for?  It does server two
purposes. One is testing but primarily it's for the users to learn how to
use a package. I think the testing is secondary, and if it slows down
installation or general usability I'd sacrifice the testing. If it's that
important, then the tests can be added explicitly in tests/.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 3:04 PM Dirk Eddelbuettel  wrote:

>
> On 18 October 2023 at 08:51, Simon Urbanek wrote:
> | John,
> |
> | the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).
>
> Not exactly. Everything is under our (i.e. package author) control, and
> when
> we want to replace 'computed' values with cached values we can.
>
> All this is somewhat of a charade. "Of course" we want vignettes to run
> tests. But then we don't want to fall over random missing .sty files or
> fonts
> (macOS machines have been less forgiving than others), not to mention
> compile
> time.
>
> So for simplicity I often pre-make pdf vignettes that get included in other
> latex code as source. Works great, never fails, CRAN never complained --
> which is somewhat contrary to your statement.
>
> It is effectively the same with tests. We all want maximum test surfaces.
> But
> when tests fail, or when they run too long, or [insert many other reasons
> here] so many packages run tests conditionally.  Such is life.
>
> Dirk
>
>
> | However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies
> allow long-running vignettes if they declared.
> |
> | Cheers,
> | Simon
> |
> |
> | > On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
> | >
> | > Hello Dirk,
> | >
> | > Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
> | >
> | > No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
> the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is
> that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something
> else, specifically using R.rsp.
> | >
> | > Best,
> | > John
> | >
> | > On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> | >> Caution: External email.
> | >> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
> | >> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the
> R.rsp
> | >> | package.
> | >> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave.
> Described in
> | >> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of
> packages
> | >> including a few of mine.
> | >> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and
> cached
> | >> results myself.
> | >> Dirk
> | >> --
> | >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
> | >> __
> | >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> | >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> | >
> | > __
> | > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> | > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> | >
> |
> | __
> | R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> | https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
>
> --
> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
>
> __
> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
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>

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Simon Urbanek]

Dirk,

I think you misread the email - John was was asking specifically about his 
approach to use REBUILD_CV_VIGNETTES without any caching since that was the 
original question which no one answered in the thread - and that was what I was 
answering. The alternative approaches were already discussed to death so I 
didn't comment on those.

Cheers,
Simon



> On 18/10/2023, at 11:03 AM, Dirk Eddelbuettel  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 18 October 2023 at 08:51, Simon Urbanek wrote:
> | John,
> | 
> | the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).
> 
> Not exactly. Everything is under our (i.e. package author) control, and when
> we want to replace 'computed' values with cached values we can.
> 
> All this is somewhat of a charade. "Of course" we want vignettes to run
> tests. But then we don't want to fall over random missing .sty files or fonts
> (macOS machines have been less forgiving than others), not to mention compile
> time.
> 
> So for simplicity I often pre-make pdf vignettes that get included in other
> latex code as source. Works great, never fails, CRAN never complained --
> which is somewhat contrary to your statement.
> 
> It is effectively the same with tests. We all want maximum test surfaces. But
> when tests fail, or when they run too long, or [insert many other reasons
> here] so many packages run tests conditionally.  Such is life.
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> | However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies 
> allow long-running vignettes if they declared.
> | 
> | Cheers,
> | Simon
> | 
> | 
> | > On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
> | > 
> | > Hello Dirk,
> | > 
> | > Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
> | > 
> | > No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether 
> the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is 
> that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something 
> else, specifically using R.rsp.
> | > 
> | > Best,
> | > John
> | > 
> | > On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> | >> Caution: External email.
> | >> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
> | >> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
> | >> | package.
> | >> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. 
> Described in
> | >> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
> | >> including a few of mine.
> | >> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
> | >> results myself.
> | >> Dirk
> | >> --
> | >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
> | >> __
> | >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> | >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> | > 
> | > __
> | > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> | > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> | > 
> | 
> | __
> | R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> | https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> 
> -- 
> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
> 

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

On 18 October 2023 at 08:51, Simon Urbanek wrote:
| John,
| 
| the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).

Not exactly. Everything is under our (i.e. package author) control, and when
we want to replace 'computed' values with cached values we can.

All this is somewhat of a charade. "Of course" we want vignettes to run
tests. But then we don't want to fall over random missing .sty files or fonts
(macOS machines have been less forgiving than others), not to mention compile
time.

So for simplicity I often pre-make pdf vignettes that get included in other
latex code as source. Works great, never fails, CRAN never complained --
which is somewhat contrary to your statement.

It is effectively the same with tests. We all want maximum test surfaces. But
when tests fail, or when they run too long, or [insert many other reasons
here] so many packages run tests conditionally.  Such is life.

Dirk

 
| However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies 
allow long-running vignettes if they declared.
| 
| Cheers,
| Simon
| 
| 
| > On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
| > 
| > Hello Dirk,
| > 
| > Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
| > 
| > No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether the 
approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is that it 
won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something else, 
specifically using R.rsp.
| > 
| > Best,
| > John
| > 
| > On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
| >> Caution: External email.
| >> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| >> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| >> | package.
| >> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described 
in
| >> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
| >> including a few of mine.
| >> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
| >> results myself.
| >> Dirk
| >> --
| >> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
| >> __
| >> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| >> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| > 
| > __
| > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| > 
| 
| __
| R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Fox]

Hello Duncan,

On 2023-10-17 4:43 p.m., Duncan Murdoch wrote:

Caution: External email.


On 17/10/2023 4:21 p.m., John Fox wrote:

Hello Simon,

On 2023-10-17 3:51 p.m., Simon Urbanek wrote:

Caution: External email.


John,

the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).


Thank you for confirming that.



However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN 
policies allow long-running vignettes if they declared.


I assume that we'd declare the long-running vignette in our submission
note to CRAN. Maybe that's better than pre-building the HTML vignettes
in the package.




There's also the "BuildVignettes: false" field in DESCRIPTION, but its
use is discouraged, and I don't think it allows you to ask CRAN to build
some vignettes but not all.


Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. There are two vignettes, one of which is 
slow to build.


Given Simon's suggestion, we'll likely submit the package with a note 
about the long-running vignette, and if that proves problematic, we can 
use R.asp to pre-build the HTML vignettes.


Best,
 John



Duncan Murdoch


Best,
   John



Cheers,
Simon



On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:

Hello Dirk,

Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.

No one directly answered my first question, however, which was 
whether the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the 
implication is that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that 
before I try something else, specifically using R.rsp.


Best,
John

On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:

Caution: External email.
On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the 
R.rsp

| package.
For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. 
Described in
a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of 
packages

including a few of mine.
That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and 
cached

results myself.
Dirk
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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Duncan Murdoch]

On 17/10/2023 4:21 p.m., John Fox wrote:

Hello Simon,

On 2023-10-17 3:51 p.m., Simon Urbanek wrote:

Caution: External email.


John,

the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).


Thank you for confirming that.



However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies allow 
long-running vignettes if they declared.


I assume that we'd declare the long-running vignette in our submission
note to CRAN. Maybe that's better than pre-building the HTML vignettes
in the package.




There's also the "BuildVignettes: false" field in DESCRIPTION, but its 
use is discouraged, and I don't think it allows you to ask CRAN to build 
some vignettes but not all.


Duncan Murdoch


Best,
   John



Cheers,
Simon



On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:

Hello Dirk,

Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.

No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether the 
approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is that it 
won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something else, 
specifically using R.rsp.

Best,
John

On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:

Caution: External email.
On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| package.
For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described in
a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
including a few of mine.
That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
results myself.
Dirk
--
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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Fox]

Hello Simon,

On 2023-10-17 3:51 p.m., Simon Urbanek wrote:

Caution: External email.


John,

the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).


Thank you for confirming that.



However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies allow 
long-running vignettes if they declared.


I assume that we'd declare the long-running vignette in our submission 
note to CRAN. Maybe that's better than pre-building the HTML vignettes 
in the package.


Best,
 John



Cheers,
Simon



On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:

Hello Dirk,

Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.

No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether the 
approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is that it 
won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something else, 
specifically using R.rsp.

Best,
John

On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:

Caution: External email.
On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| package.
For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described in
a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
including a few of mine.
That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
results myself.
Dirk
--
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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Fox]

Dear Henrik,

I'd already read the R.rsp vignette to which you refer, and, as I said, 
confirmed that I can use R.rsp to implement static HTML vignettes for 
our package.


Thank you for the confirmation,
 John

On 2023-10-17 3:50 p.m., Henrik Bengtsson wrote:

Caution: External email.


On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:45 PM John Fox  wrote:


Hello Dirk,

Thank you for the additional information.

As you suggest, what you did to distribute pre-built PDF vignettes is
quite similar to what R.rsp does, except that the latter also supports
pre-built HTML vignettes, which is what I'd prefer to distribute. Since


Author of R.rsp here: It supports both static PDFs and static HTMLs, cf.

https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/R.rsp/vignettes/R_packages-Static_PDF_and_HTML_vignettes.pdf

/Henrik


I apparently have that working now, we'll probably go with it unless we
hit snags when the package is sent to CRAN.

While I appreciate the offer, it's probably not necessary for you to
spend more time on this now.

Thanks again,
   John

On 2023-10-17 3:19 p.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:

Caution: External email.


John,

On 17 October 2023 at 10:02, John Fox wrote:
| Hello Dirk,
|
| Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
|
| No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
| the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication
| is that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try
| something else, specifically using R.rsp.

I am a little remote here, both mentally and physically. What I might do here
in the case of your long-running vignette, and have done in about half a
dozen packages where I wanted 'certainty' and no surprises, is to render the
pdf vignette I want as I want them locally, ship them in the package as an
included file (sometimes from a subdirectory) and have a five-or-so line
Sweave .Rnw file include it. That works without hassles. Here is the Rnw I
use for package anytime

-
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{pdfpages}
%\VignetteIndexEntry{Introduction to anytime}
%\VignetteKeywords{anytime, date, datetime, conversion}
%\VignettePackage{anytime}
%\VignetteEncoding{UTF-8}

\begin{document}
\includepdf[pages=-, fitpaper=true]{anytime-intro.pdf}
\end{document}
-

That is five lines of LaTeX code slurping in the pdf (per the blog post by
Mark). As I understand it R.rsp does something similar at the marginal cost
of an added dependency.

Now, as mentioned, you can also 'conditionally' conpute in a vignette and
choose if and when to use a data cache. I think that we show most of that in
the package described in the RJournal piece by Brooke and myself on drat for
data repositories. (We may be skipping the compute when the data is not
accessible. Loading a precomputed set is similar. I may be doing that in the
much older never quite finished gcbd package and its vignette.

Hope this helps, maybe more once I am back home.

Cheers, Dirk

| Best,
|   John
|
| On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
| > Caution: External email.
| >
| >
| > On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| > | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| > | package.
| >
| > For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described 
in
| > a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
| > including a few of mine.
| >
| > That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
| > results myself.
| >
| > Dirk
| >
| > --
| > dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
| >
| > __
| > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
|

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Simon Urbanek]

John,

the short answer is it won't work (it defeats the purpose of vignettes).

However, this sounds like a purely hypothetical question - CRAN policies allow 
long-running vignettes if they declared.

Cheers,
Simon


> On 18/10/2023, at 3:02 AM, John Fox  wrote:
> 
> Hello Dirk,
> 
> Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
> 
> No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether the 
> approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication is that it 
> won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try something else, 
> specifically using R.rsp.
> 
> Best,
> John
> 
> On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
>> Caution: External email.
>> On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
>> | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
>> | package.
>> For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described in
>> a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
>> including a few of mine.
>> That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
>> results myself.
>> Dirk
>> --
>> dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
>> __
>> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> 
> __
> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> 

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Henrik Bengtsson]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 12:45 PM John Fox  wrote:
>
> Hello Dirk,
>
> Thank you for the additional information.
>
> As you suggest, what you did to distribute pre-built PDF vignettes is
> quite similar to what R.rsp does, except that the latter also supports
> pre-built HTML vignettes, which is what I'd prefer to distribute. Since

Author of R.rsp here: It supports both static PDFs and static HTMLs, cf.

https://cran.r-project.org/web/packages/R.rsp/vignettes/R_packages-Static_PDF_and_HTML_vignettes.pdf

/Henrik

> I apparently have that working now, we'll probably go with it unless we
> hit snags when the package is sent to CRAN.
>
> While I appreciate the offer, it's probably not necessary for you to
> spend more time on this now.
>
> Thanks again,
>   John
>
> On 2023-10-17 3:19 p.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> > Caution: External email.
> >
> >
> > John,
> >
> > On 17 October 2023 at 10:02, John Fox wrote:
> > | Hello Dirk,
> > |
> > | Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
> > |
> > | No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
> > | the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication
> > | is that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try
> > | something else, specifically using R.rsp.
> >
> > I am a little remote here, both mentally and physically. What I might do 
> > here
> > in the case of your long-running vignette, and have done in about half a
> > dozen packages where I wanted 'certainty' and no surprises, is to render the
> > pdf vignette I want as I want them locally, ship them in the package as an
> > included file (sometimes from a subdirectory) and have a five-or-so line
> > Sweave .Rnw file include it. That works without hassles. Here is the Rnw I
> > use for package anytime
> >
> > -
> > \documentclass{article}
> > \usepackage{pdfpages}
> > %\VignetteIndexEntry{Introduction to anytime}
> > %\VignetteKeywords{anytime, date, datetime, conversion}
> > %\VignettePackage{anytime}
> > %\VignetteEncoding{UTF-8}
> >
> > \begin{document}
> > \includepdf[pages=-, fitpaper=true]{anytime-intro.pdf}
> > \end{document}
> > -
> >
> > That is five lines of LaTeX code slurping in the pdf (per the blog post by
> > Mark). As I understand it R.rsp does something similar at the marginal cost
> > of an added dependency.
> >
> > Now, as mentioned, you can also 'conditionally' conpute in a vignette and
> > choose if and when to use a data cache. I think that we show most of that in
> > the package described in the RJournal piece by Brooke and myself on drat for
> > data repositories. (We may be skipping the compute when the data is not
> > accessible. Loading a precomputed set is similar. I may be doing that in the
> > much older never quite finished gcbd package and its vignette.
> >
> > Hope this helps, maybe more once I am back home.
> >
> > Cheers, Dirk
> >
> > | Best,
> > |   John
> > |
> > | On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
> > | > Caution: External email.
> > | >
> > | >
> > | > On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
> > | > | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
> > | > | package.
> > | >
> > | > For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. 
> > Described in
> > | > a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of 
> > packages
> > | > including a few of mine.
> > | >
> > | > That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
> > | > results myself.
> > | >
> > | > Dirk
> > | >
> > | > --
> > | > dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
> > | >
> > | > __
> > | > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> > | > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
> > |
> >
> > --
> > dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
>
> __
> R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Fox]

Hello Dirk,

Thank you for the additional information.

As you suggest, what you did to distribute pre-built PDF vignettes is 
quite similar to what R.rsp does, except that the latter also supports 
pre-built HTML vignettes, which is what I'd prefer to distribute. Since 
I apparently have that working now, we'll probably go with it unless we 
hit snags when the package is sent to CRAN.


While I appreciate the offer, it's probably not necessary for you to 
spend more time on this now.


Thanks again,
 John

On 2023-10-17 3:19 p.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:

Caution: External email.


John,

On 17 October 2023 at 10:02, John Fox wrote:
| Hello Dirk,
|
| Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
|
| No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether
| the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication
| is that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try
| something else, specifically using R.rsp.

I am a little remote here, both mentally and physically. What I might do here
in the case of your long-running vignette, and have done in about half a
dozen packages where I wanted 'certainty' and no surprises, is to render the
pdf vignette I want as I want them locally, ship them in the package as an
included file (sometimes from a subdirectory) and have a five-or-so line
Sweave .Rnw file include it. That works without hassles. Here is the Rnw I
use for package anytime

-
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{pdfpages}
%\VignetteIndexEntry{Introduction to anytime}
%\VignetteKeywords{anytime, date, datetime, conversion}
%\VignettePackage{anytime}
%\VignetteEncoding{UTF-8}

\begin{document}
\includepdf[pages=-, fitpaper=true]{anytime-intro.pdf}
\end{document}
-

That is five lines of LaTeX code slurping in the pdf (per the blog post by
Mark). As I understand it R.rsp does something similar at the marginal cost
of an added dependency.

Now, as mentioned, you can also 'conditionally' conpute in a vignette and
choose if and when to use a data cache. I think that we show most of that in
the package described in the RJournal piece by Brooke and myself on drat for
data repositories. (We may be skipping the compute when the data is not
accessible. Loading a precomputed set is similar. I may be doing that in the
much older never quite finished gcbd package and its vignette.

Hope this helps, maybe more once I am back home.

Cheers, Dirk

| Best,
|   John
|
| On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
| > Caution: External email.
| >
| >
| > On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| > | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| > | package.
| >
| > For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described 
in
| > a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
| > including a few of mine.
| >
| > That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
| > results myself.
| >
| > Dirk
| >
| > --
| > dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
| >
| > __
| > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
|

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[R-pkg-devel] CMD check: Examples vs DEPENDS pkg

[Leonard Mada via R-package-devel]

Dear List members,

Package Rpdf depends on package rgl. Multiple examples will call 
internally the rgl package to visualize the pdb molecule.


When performing the CMD check:
1) Is the rgl package loaded each time anew for any of those examples?

2) If this is the case:
Is it possible to load it only once per CMD check?

Sincerely,

Leonard

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

John,

On 17 October 2023 at 10:02, John Fox wrote:
| Hello Dirk,
| 
| Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.
| 
| No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether 
| the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication 
| is that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try 
| something else, specifically using R.rsp.

I am a little remote here, both mentally and physically. What I might do here
in the case of your long-running vignette, and have done in about half a
dozen packages where I wanted 'certainty' and no surprises, is to render the
pdf vignette I want as I want them locally, ship them in the package as an
included file (sometimes from a subdirectory) and have a five-or-so line
Sweave .Rnw file include it. That works without hassles. Here is the Rnw I
use for package anytime

-
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{pdfpages}
%\VignetteIndexEntry{Introduction to anytime}
%\VignetteKeywords{anytime, date, datetime, conversion}
%\VignettePackage{anytime}
%\VignetteEncoding{UTF-8}

\begin{document}
\includepdf[pages=-, fitpaper=true]{anytime-intro.pdf}
\end{document}
-

That is five lines of LaTeX code slurping in the pdf (per the blog post by
Mark). As I understand it R.rsp does something similar at the marginal cost
of an added dependency.

Now, as mentioned, you can also 'conditionally' conpute in a vignette and
choose if and when to use a data cache. I think that we show most of that in
the package described in the RJournal piece by Brooke and myself on drat for
data repositories. (We may be skipping the compute when the data is not
accessible. Loading a precomputed set is similar. I may be doing that in the
much older never quite finished gcbd package and its vignette.

Hope this helps, maybe more once I am back home.

Cheers, Dirk
 
| Best,
|   John
| 
| On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:
| > Caution: External email.
| > 
| > 
| > On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| > | Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| > | package.
| > 
| > For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described 
in
| > a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
| > including a few of mine.
| > 
| > That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
| > results myself.
| > 
| > Dirk
| > 
| > --
| > dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org
| > 
| > __
| > R-package-devel@r-project.org mailing list
| > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-package-devel
| 

-- 
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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problem with "additional repository".

[Ivan Krylov]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 17:08:28 +0200
Uwe Ligges  wrote:

> I do not know which package this refers to, so cannot easily look.

This seems to be about the eglhmm package. It seems to pass --as-cran
checks on my machine, but I know it's not the full set of checks
performed for new packages.

-- 
Best regards,
Ivan

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[John Fox]

Hello Dirk,

Thank you (and Kevin and John) for addressing my questions.

No one directly answered my first question, however, which was whether 
the approach that I suggested would work. I guess that the implication 
is that it won't, but it would be nice to confirm that before I try 
something else, specifically using R.rsp.


Best,
 John

On 2023-10-17 4:02 a.m., Dirk Eddelbuettel wrote:

Caution: External email.


On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp
| package.

For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described in
a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
including a few of mine.

That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
results myself.

Dirk

--
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Re: [R-pkg-devel] CartogRaflow submission

[Ivan Krylov]

This is the NOTE you've been asked to fix:

> * checking installed files from ‘inst/doc’ ... NOTE
> The following files should probably not be installed:
>   ‘Logo_cartograflow.png’
> 
> Consider the use of a .Rinstignore file: see ‘Writing R Extensions’,
> or move the vignette sources from ‘inst/doc’ to ‘vignettes’.

I see you're using this logo in your README.md, not the vignette. I'm
not sure how CRAN's README.md renderer works and where it looks up the
images. Perhaps you do need to mention this file in .Rinstignore.

Many other packages seem to have given up and only use
externally-loaded images in their README.md (which is great for letting
third parties track the user every time they view a README).

-- 
Best regards,
Ivan

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[R-pkg-devel] Re :Re: Re :Re: Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[cartograf...@gmail.com]

You will find the full R CMD check that I received 
Status: 2 NOTEs
Debian: 



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  Le mar., oct. 17, 2023 à 11:49, Ivan Krylov a écrit:   
Dear Sylvain,

В Tue, 17 Oct 2023 09:45:25 + (UTC)
"cartograf...@gmail.com"  пишет:

> I've uploaded cartogRaflow version 1.0.4 with sf package. 
> I've submitted yesterday the version 1.0.4 in CRAN and received 2 two
> error message because cartogRaflow is archived and use rgeos maptools
> in version 1.0.3 

Could you please show us the full R CMD check report e-mailed to you in
response to the CRAN submission?

A NOTE saying that the previous version had been archived is to be
expected. If it's all your package got, it will be manually reviewed
later and published.

-- 
Best regards,
Ivan
  

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Ivan Krylov]

Dear Sylvain,

В Tue, 17 Oct 2023 09:45:25 + (UTC)
"cartograf...@gmail.com"  пишет:

> I've uploaded cartogRaflow version 1.0.4 with sf package. 
> I've submitted yesterday the version 1.0.4 in CRAN and received 2 two
> error message because cartogRaflow is archived and use rgeos maptools
> in version 1.0.3 

Could you please show us the full R CMD check report e-mailed to you in
response to the CRAN submission?

A NOTE saying that the previous version had been archived is to be
expected. If it's all your package got, it will be manually reviewed
later and published.

-- 
Best regards,
Ivan

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[R-pkg-devel] Re :Re: Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[cartograf...@gmail.com]

Hi, thanks to reply. I know that the version 1.0.3 of cartogRaflow use rgeos 
maptools. Now the version cartogRaflow was archived on 16th October. I've 
uploaded cartogRaflow version 1.0.4 with sf package. 
I've submitted yesterday the version 1.0.4 in CRAN and received 2 two error 
message because cartogRaflow is archived and use rgeos maptools in version 
1.0.3 
My question is : how can put the version 1.0.4 in CRAN? 
Thanks in advance Sylvain 

Envoyé depuis Yahoo Mail pour Android 
 
  Le mar., oct. 17, 2023 à 10:03, Dirk Eddelbuettel a écrit:   
On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp 
| package.

For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described in
a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
including a few of mine.

That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
results myself.

Dirk

-- 
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Re: [R-pkg-devel] Suppressing long-running vignette code in CRAN submission

[Dirk Eddelbuettel]

On 16 October 2023 at 10:42, Kevin R Coombes wrote:
| Produce a PDF file yourself, then use the "as.is" feature of the R.rsp 
| package.

For completeness, that approach also works directly with Sweave. Described in
a blog post by Mark van der Loo in 2019, and used in a number of packages
including a few of mine.

That said, I also used the approach described by John Harrold and cached
results myself.

Dirk

-- 
dirk.eddelbuettel.com | @eddelbuettel | e...@debian.org

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] CartogRaflow submission

[Ivan Krylov]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023 21:38:59 + (UTC)
"cartograf...@gmail.com"  wrote:

> Hi, I've put an update version of the package cartogRaflow 1.0.4 in
> CRAN today.

What was the full check result?

> Last released version's CRAN status: OK: 11, ERROR: 2
> See:
> 

See the links at , including
.

The archival message recommends the use of 'sf' or 'terra' instead of
'maptools' and 'rgeos'. I hope you'll be able to find the desired
functionality in these packages. People here and on R-SIG-Geo may be
able to give you more detailed instructions.

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Ivan

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] CartogRaflow submission

[Iñaki Ucar]

El mar., 17 oct. 2023 9:13, cartograf...@gmail.com 
escribió:

> Hi, I've put an update version of the package cartogRaflow 1.0.4 in CRAN
> today.
> There are 2 errors
> Last released version's CRAN status: OK: 11, ERROR: 2
> See: <
> https://cran-archive.r-project.org/web/checks/2023/2023-10-16_check_results_cartograflow.html
> >
>
> The version 1.0.3 was archived today.
> I would like to know if these errors are due to the version 1.0.3 was
> archived. If yes, is it possible to fix these errors? Thanks in
> advance Sylvain
>

Packages rgeos and maptools have been deprecated and archived on CRAN. You
should use sf or terra instead.

Best,
Iñaki

>

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Re: [R-pkg-devel] CartogRaflow submission

[Iris Simmons]

The packages that you imported are no longer available. As far as I
understand, rgeos, maptools, and a few other spatial related packages have
been archived and have been replaced with better alternatives.

On Tue, Oct 17, 2023, 03:13 cartograf...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Hi, I've put an update version of the package cartogRaflow 1.0.4 in CRAN
> today.
> There are 2 errors
> Last released version's CRAN status: OK: 11, ERROR: 2
> See: <
> https://cran-archive.r-project.org/web/checks/2023/2023-10-16_check_results_cartograflow.html
> >
>
> The version 1.0.3 was archived today.
> I would like to know if these errors are due to the version 1.0.3 was
> archived. If yes, is it possible to fix these errors? Thanks in
> advance Sylvain
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>
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[R-pkg-devel] CartogRaflow submission

[cartograf...@gmail.com]

Hi, I've put an update version of the package cartogRaflow 1.0.4 in CRAN today. 
There are 2 errors 
Last released version's CRAN status: OK: 11, ERROR: 2
See: 


The version 1.0.3 was archived today. 
I would like to know if these errors are due to the version 1.0.3 was archived. 
If yes, is it possible to fix these errors? Thanks in advance Sylvain 
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