On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 06:38:01 -, Brent Poirier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Baha'i Writings are filled with praise of the previous
Revelations sent down by God. Similarly, the Writings of all of the
Prophets praise the Revelations that preceded Them.
At the same time, a Revelation is
[Regarding the Bab's claims that the previous religions were fit to be
universal]
On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 21:17:09 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 08:47 PM 12/26/2004, you wrote:
But it does seem to suggest that the previous religions are sufficient
guidance for
Gilberto,
At 07:54 AM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is finished
and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and overwhelm the
claim that you are praising those revelations.
I would want to see the passage on which that
Hi, Gilberto,
At 08:01 AM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I think I understand what you are saying but is Progressive Revelation even
found in the Bab's writings?
Yes:
It is clear and evident that the object of all preceding Dispensations hath
been to pave the way for the advent of Muhammad, the
I think I got the idea that maybe the Bab wasn't so much into
Perennialism was a passage I read a long time ago:
7 No one hath been or will ever be invested with prophethood other
than Thee, nor hath any sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any
one except Thee. Such is the decree ordained
In a message dated 12/27/2004 9:17:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I mean, I think theBab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed fromtime to time I'm not sure if it says that the the next revelationswill be better/deeper/more spiritual./ etc. Maybe
In a message dated 12/27/2004 8:41:38 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I would want to see the passage on which that statement was made. I do not take `Abdu'l-Baha's seasonal analogy as evidence He believed that the force of a Revelation could be spent.
Just because the
In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:45:54 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure what you mean. Consider a specific example. Fasting inRamadan. The Quran clearly orders Muslims to fast in the month ofRamadan. And for Muslims this is experienced even today as a
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:18:12 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/27/2004 9:17:56 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I mean, I think the
Bab does seem to be saying that the revelation will be renewed from
time to time I'm not sure if it says
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 11:48:37 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:45:54 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm not sure what you mean. Consider a specific example. Fasting in
Ramadan. The Quran clearly orders Muslims to fast in the
In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:51:08 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab wascomplete and enshrines all the others past and future, and if heprovides the full letters of the alphabet, what need is there
In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:57:58 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting inRamadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab.Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary
Hi, Gilberto,
At 09:17 AM 12/27/2004, you quoted:
7 No one hath been or will ever be invested with prophethood other than Thee,
nor hath any sacred Book been or will be revealed unto any one except Thee.
Such is the decree ordained by Him Who is the All-Encompassing, the Best
Beloved.
Off the
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:28:53 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:57:58 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting in
Ramadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:27:35 EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:51:08 AM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gilberto:
Ok, but then the question remains, if the revelation of the Bab was
complete and enshrines all the others past and
In a message dated 12/27/2004 5:18:05 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What did the Bab mean by saying that no one would be invested withprophethood after Thee [Him?] If Bahaullah was going to come shortlyafter him? And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the
Ido not believe we shouldfocus on the failures of Islam (see below); instead, it is a simple matter of the fact that the revelation (of Muhammad/Qur'an/Islam proper) has come to an end, even though theeternal in thepast and futureIslam is re-revealed in the form of Baha'u'llah and His various
I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.
Your view does not makes sense to me because the Qur'an praises Jesus even though it is (in most
G:
But again, the question remains, in what sense has the fasting in Ramadan become an empty ritual which has been fulfilled in the Bab. Are you saying that literally the Bab makes Muslims (ordinary sense) better Muslims?
JS:
Yes, I think that the implication is that in some miraculous way
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:32:47 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 05:17 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
And if the Bab came with the full alphabet and the Bayan enshrines all
future revelation does that mean Bahaullah's message was redundant?
I am just speculating.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:14:40 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto
At 05:53 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure about why Perennialism would preclude that sort of behavior.
At least when I think about it, Perennialism might imply a theoretical and
intellectual
Gilberto,
At 07:20 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet,
but he wasn't even the last manifestation in the Prophetic Cycle?
It depends on one's terminologies and categories. I would say that *both*
Muhammad and the Bab concluded the
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 16:55:04 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think that for a lot of people, if you say that their religion is
finished and its force is spent, that would tend to contraadict and
overwhelm the claim that you are praising those revelations.
Your view does not
But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?
Peace
Gilberto
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:48:48 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 07:20 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
So from the Bahai perspective, not only was Muhammad not the last prophet,
but he wasn't even the
G:
But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?J:
In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As far as (1) is concerned, He is in the cycle of fulfillment, not the prophetic cycle. As far as (2) is concerned,
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:05:11 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But then by following his laws wouldn't that imply converting?
Yes. In my view, it does. 'Conversion', I believe, is the first paragraph
of the Aqdas in one word.
So you aren't talking about the Bab or
G:
So you aren't talking about the Bab or Bahaullah helping Muslimsbecome better Muslims. You are talking about Muslims, not beingMuslims anymore and becoming Bahais.J:
By Muslim I mean a follower of the 'eternal Faith of God', not the Religion of Prophet
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 18:09:30 -0800 (PST), John Smith
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
G:
But why would the terminology be so inconsistent?
J:
In my view I think it is because the Bab fulfills two roles: (1) Independent
Manifestation and (2) Forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As far as (1) is
G:
But aren't the previous Manifestations supposed to be independentmanifestations too, but they are still considered part of the cycle ofprophethood. no?J:
As always, all these are my own view and I may be wrong. But my understanding is that the BabBaha'u'llahare the only manifestations that
Gilberto,
At 07:47 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's
writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit to
be universal) make sense from a traditionalist perennialism.
But where do you get the
Hi, John,
At 08:01 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
Mark, You called him the point between the cycles... I retract the statement
about the line, because two cycles/circles touch at one point and not at a
line.
Yes. I was referring to the Bab's title, Primal Point (nuqtiy-i-ula).
With regards, Mark
Gilberto,
Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that I
think we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's
time has passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have
ceased to admire Rome.
Rich
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004
But what does that mean exactly? What would be missing? Because the
Shia recognize Ali as the imam. They have Nahjul-Balagha the book of
Ali's letters and sermons, the hadith, the other writings of the
imams. And Even most of the sunni Sufi orders trace their lineage
through Ali (rather than Abu
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:32:57 -0600, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 07:47 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean. Those seeming exclusive statements in the Bab's
writings combined with a kind of perennialism (that all religions are fit
to be universal)
Gilberto:
Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well.
But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are
saying.
It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question
of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past.
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:48:26 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But what does that mean exactly? What would be missing? Because the
Shia recognize Ali as the imam. They have Nahjul-Balagha the book of
Ali's letters and sermons, the hadith, the other writings of the
imams. And Even
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:58:42 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
In any case, if the Bible has not been substantially changed in any
way,
then the genocidal commandments in the Bible are actually from
God, and then
you have to find some sort of way to justify or explain
such
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:45:16 -0800, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that I think
we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's time has
passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have
In a message dated 12/27/2004 10:03:55 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But the sunni and shiite theology is there.Remember the originalquestion was your claim that if the majority had accepted Ali thatIslam might have become universal. EVen from the Bahai perspectivewhere
It depends on what you mean by recognize. Even from a Sunni
perspective, Sunnis are supposed to have love for ahl al-bayt. (The
family of Muhammad). So Ali, Hassan, and Hussein, are still beloved
companions who were close to the prophet. Subsequent imams were either
followers or
Hi, Gilberto,
At 09:53 PM 12/27/2004, you wrote:
Maybe I'm misremembering it but the passage I saw recently talked about the
previous revelations being renewed which to me suggested more of a repetitive
process where the revelation is more of a reminder of what came before.
That passage
Brent,
What does this mean
we are in the cycle which began with Adam and Baha'u'llah is its
Supreme Manifestaion
i thought we were in a new universal cycle..
thanks
marylou
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