Back in the day, just sniffing the ethernet would get you all the email flying
around your company. Was kinda fun.
I know one guy that would purposely jam another’s outgoing email.
Once he detected who it was from he would just turn on transmit. This was on a
CSMA/CD coaxial network.
From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2023 2:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
Internet email isn't anonymous, never was. Even in the early days. There
has always been a multitude of ways to track email back to the origin server.
And there has been a multitude of ways to obfuscate but not hide that origin.
Any anonymity you may have is based on the origin server either not knowing or
not being willing to disclose that information. Every email received generally
will be able to be tracked back to the origin server, with the caveat that
sometimes the owner of the origin server will be unable to be determined since
any random person can spin up a server, send mail, and drop off the planet.
Note that spf and dmarc don't validate the user. They only validate that the
email originated from servers known to send mail for a given domain and provide
some cryptographic assurance of that fact. It's a way for legitimate companies
to ensure that email that appears to come from them actually comes from them
and for companies like google to be able to reject what appear to be emails
with spoofed sender information.
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 3:17 PM Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net> wrote:
Because 45 years ago my company was connected to the rest of itself via the
arpanet and they promised us on a stack of bibles that those who used the email
system would always remain anonymous. Of course, then later they published a
5,000 page phone book with all our emails associated with our work addresses
for over 50,000 employees. I printed it out and put it in a 3-ring binder and
put it in the computer room where the other users could use it. Back then we
had these machines called an Alto and each user had this big plastic cartridge
with a huge disk in it. If I recall, this generated a lawsuit, because they
promised us that no-one would ever know our email address associated with our
work phone, work address, etc... . It wasn't true then and it still isn't
true. But that can't make it, the promise, unsaid.
On 3/12/23 09:47, Steve Jones wrote:
wtf, where did you get that email was designed for anonymity?
This is getting to some Qanon level right here
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 11:40 AM Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net> wrote:
good question Forrest. mail.com provides several hundred domains to
choose from and use and easily works with thunderbird as well as most other
email reader applications. Plus it's free. All Google is doing is
monopolizing email. Email was originally designed to be used by arpanet to be
free/open/anonymous and to still be functional even after a global war. Using
spf/dkim removes the anonymous. I don't think that's right. I also think that
since you have just shown me how easy it is to send fake mail, it also seems it
could be about as easy to add a fake spf/dkim into it with a little more python
scripting. End result is now google knows exactly who you are and who you're
sending to and the spam filters are broken because now we'll have verified spam
mail.
Who are you? Who do you know? What is the content? Where is your
privacy?
Problems with the ease of Telnetting spoof mail: I do not know anyone who
has their very own homemade mail server, plus, I do not know anyone who has
actually built and setup successfully a homebrew DIY email server. I do know
lots of people who have tried to do so, including myself. It's way easier to
buy it as a service and then it gets expensive. Another problem is most of the
free email servers won't allow users to send more than 10 emails at a time and
you have to wait up to an hour before you can send 10 more. That's why I tried
to build my own, just so I could send customers the monthly billing
automatically. I even hired a programmer who said he had done it before, he
failed.
On 3/12/23 07:32, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
I can insert a spoofed email using only telnet to port 25 on a mail
server in about 30 seconds not counting the time it takes to type the message
itself. Basically you telnet to port 25, issue four commands (HELO, MAIL FROM,
RCPT TO, DATA), and then type the message itself.
Spoofing email in an automated way only takes some basic python skills.
Like I could teach anyone with a bit of computer experience how to do it in
about an hour or so. This python script can run on anything that runs python,
which is pretty much any general purpose computing device.
So it is ridiculously cheap and easy to spoof email.
The reason it is so easy is that email by itself has zero
authentication of origin and an open, plaintext, protocol.
The purpose of spf/dkim/dmarc is to add a level of authentication
information to at least be able to reject some spoofed emails.
What that Google bounce says is that there is something in the mail.com
email which doesn't match the spf/dmarc/dkim records. I'm not 100٪ sure but it
seems to not be happy with the linuxmail.org domain being inside the email
record.
How are the mail.com emails being generated? Are they through a web
server client on mail.com? If not, where? And are the emails from a mail.com
address or are you just using mail.com to relay mail from another domain?
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023, 1:20 AM Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net> wrote:
I can't recall ever using telnet for anything recent, it's ancient,
doesn't work with anything much in todays world. How would this be useful in
sending email?
On 3/11/23 21:36, Steve Jones wrote:
telnet is fancy expensive equipment needed to spoof email? Ive
never paid for telnet
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 10:48 PM Jan-GAMs <j.vank...@grnacres.net>
wrote:
You see, that's exactly where we part ways. Engulf and Devour
was the villain corporation in the Silent Movie by Mel Brooks. Every time I
saw that movie, I couldn't help but think of Microsoft and Google slicing up
the planet for themselves. Gives me diarrhea just thinking about those two
companies.
You have to have some pretty fancy expensive equipment just to
spoof email, so why bother? It's not the little folk who are doing the
spoofing. So when they get all us little folk passing on all our secrets of
our little lives. Then the spoofers will start using fake SPF/DKIM and then
we're right back to as much or more SPAM as ever. Problem will be worse than
ever.
On 3/11/23 18:07, Darin Steffl wrote:
I was curious so found that Gmail started requiring emails sent
to personal Gmail to have SPF or DKIM enabled or emails would be rejected or
sent to spam. Good for them to drag the bad email hosts along for the ride in
preventing spam.
These prevention measures are ridiculously easy to implement so
I don't have any patience for email hosts who don't set them up. If you can't
handle simple tasks, outsource things to the big boys.
https://support.google.com/a/answer/174124?hl=en#:~:text=Important%3A%20Starting%20November%202022%2C%20new,to%20verify%20they're%20authenticated.
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 7:33 PM Matt Hopkins
<mhopk...@hunterfiber.com> wrote:
Do you use any Microsoft products? If you use Windows and
care about data security then you've already failed. I find Microsoft the most
deplorable, but I'm only one guy. I have to pick my battles. I refuse to use
Microsoft (anything) but we use Gmail at work and it's more or less flawless.
We have had some people report they can't reach us but the resolution is always
what has already been mentioned here. Google made DKIM/SPF mandatory I want to
say just a few months ago but many of the smaller mail providers do not have it
set up yet.
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 4:49 PM Darin Steffl
<darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> wrote:
Jan,
Most of the links you shared aren't of Google being hacked,
but people being scammed/phished. Tricking a user into sharing their login info
means the user was scammed, not that google was hacked. ONE link you shared
says less than 24 gmails in Iran were hacked somehow. None of your links share
that google has had a massive data breach at any time. That's not to say it
can't/won't happen but there's been no big hacks at Google as far as I can
remember.
I stand by my claim that you're being paranoid. I promise
you that mail.com or hosting your own email is far less secure and more easily
hacked than Google is. Do you have thousands of engineers working to keep your
data secure? That answer is NO. I am not delusional enough to think that
hosting my own Linux server for email will be more secure than Google. There's
no way I can outsmart hackers, keep updated on hourly or daily updates and
patches, etc. Nor do I want to do that when I can outsource to a company that
does it much better than I do.
I don't host a single server for our WISP in 11 years in
business and I won't be starting today. The cloud is the future and keeps me
hands off on servers and software. If there's a problem, it's someone else's
job to fix it and my only job is to report the issue. What if I'm on vacation
and I had one or more servers that failed? Now that's my job to fix things
while I'm supposed to be off the clock. I don't need that kind of stress in my
life so I refuse to host any servers that are mission critical to my business.
The only thing resembling a server would be our Preseem appliance but we have
backup OSPF routes around it in case that fails.
Our billing system is Azotel and they have hosted it in the
cloud for us since we started 11 years ago. Total downtime in 11 years is under
1 hour. Not every cloud service is that reliable. They handle the multiple
backups and securing of the servers too. Slack, for example, has probably had
12 hours of downtime or subpar performance in the 5 years we've used it but it
still was an issue I didn't have to fix myself.
On Sat, Mar 11, 2023 at 2:31 PM Steve Jones
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
I like dmarc since you get to dictate the strictness and
get reports on your overall deliverability
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 7:44 PM Darin Steffl
<darin.ste...@mnwifi.com> wrote:
Jan,
I don't recall any hacks or data breaches to Google at
all. I've seen plenty of other platforms with breaches like t-mobile but Google
is pretty secure. I think you're acting a little paranoid in protecting your
phone number. I can pay some online service and get your home address, phone
numbers, and social security number if I wanted to. This information that you
think is very secure is almost public knowledge for a fee.
As others have said, DKIM/SPF are industry standards,
not Google, and they're pretty old at this point. DMARC is newer, to me at
least, in the last several years so not every platform gives much weight to
this but DKIM and SPF is a must nowadays for any email provider.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 4:03 PM Josh Baird
<joshba...@gmail.com> wrote:
DKIM/SPF/DFMARC aren't "made-up standards" from
Google.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 4:31 PM Jan-GAMs
<j.vank...@grnacres.net> wrote:
I don't see how you come to the conclusion that my
paid for mail service is supposed to have recently imposed made-up standards
from google that comply only with google as some sort of long-standing
standard. It's a recent standard imposed by google. And I'm never going to
willingly give google my phone number so that when they get hacked again the
hackers will have my email and my phone number. Why don't I just broadcast on
some public website my social security number too? Yeah, tiktok or twitter,
give them my phone number, ssi, home address, all my emails along with my real
name. Because when you give google your phone number, they now have exactly
who you are and access to all your private info. How many times in the last
couple years has google been hacked? Constantly! I am not going to freely
give this shit to them.
Well, I'm wrong, you're right. When I bought the
phone, google forced me into an email address as part of using the phone. I
never use that email and I refuse to login to anything using that email. Other
than that I don't know how to tell them to sit on a sharp stick and twirl.
On 3/10/23 12:02, Steve Jones wrote:
if you had followed your email providers
instructions, you wouldnt have created your own problems.
spam is floating score based.
bulk/public/free/spamhost email providers have high scores to start. proper spf
loweres it, lack of dkim raises it, lack of dmarc raises it, content cn raise
it, all the IPs in the mail chain can raise it.
Thats why youre responsible for doing your part
to increase your deliverability. If you were sending a business correspondence
you might go as far as sending it certified mail, becaus eyou want
deliverability. But if you didnt go that far, you wouldnt put the
correspondence in an envelope that looks like dish network advertising because
it would be discarded as junk mail, you wouldnt put it an odd shaped envelope
that can get stuck in the sorting machines, you wouldnt put phrase like "sperm
burglar" on the exterior, youd put it in a business class envelope with windows
and clearly visible address marking, a proper return address, etc.
Weve been managing deliverability with these
types of methods since before emails. and even that changed over time.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 1:50 PM Jan-GAMs
<j.vank...@grnacres.net> wrote:
So, since grnacres doesn't have dkim or dmarc
records, they should be getting bounced like the mail.com records too. I don't
have any control over the mail servers. I rent the service "easymail" along
with the domain name from easydns. You know, it sounds to me more like google
is a terrorist organization stamping on the competition just because they can
get away with it. They make shit up, and terrorize those whom they want to
force into compliance with their made-up bullshit. Next they're going to be
asking for money
Where is the anti-trust people when you need
them?
On 3/10/23 10:55, Steve Jones wrote:
grnacres.net doesnt have dkim nor a dmarc
record. Thats bad domain deliverability practice, nothing to do with the
mailhost perse, but if mail.com doesnt support dkim, its a trash mail host like
sherweb. Cant blame recipient mail servers when the root issue is the sending
server isnt current. Its like getting pissed that somebody doesnt get
communications you sent out by telegraph
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:49 PM Steve Jones
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
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avNg==
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Message-ID: <7b07154d-8e71-69fc-f76a-bcfb5ec52...@grnacres.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:42:59 -0800
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To: thatoneguyst...@gmail.com
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On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:47 PM Steve Jones
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
nope, this gmail account is standard free
account.
Im probably special cause all my communications
get routed through the FBI servers for my online antics
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:33 PM Jan-GAMs
<j.vank...@grnacres.net> wrote:
it was a test. Only the ones addressed to you
went through. The others tested, bounced. Your address is different somehow.
You mentioned your gmail is a paid-for account, the others that bounced were
the free-gmail type accounts one gets by logging into google. The emails were
sent from mail.com and from my own business accounts. The business ones went
through and the mail.com ones bounced except for the one sent to you. I picked
4 gmail addresses and sent them out, all of the ones sent from the mail.com
got bounced except yours. What makes you so special?
On 3/10/23 09:14, Steve Jones wrote:
i got your spam emails this morning
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:04 AM
<dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
Apparently nobody on gmail has noticed
From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of
Jan-GAMs
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 10:32 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
All mail.com users cannot send you email. How
many other's are blocked as well? Oblivion, must be sweet.
On 3/9/23 20:14, Darin Steffl wrote:
Gmail is the best. Been using them for our
business since 2012. Virtually no issues at all aside from a handful of short
outages over the last 11 years.
It's hands off, costs very little, and I've
NEVER needed to contact them for support. We also use Google drive and their
version of office apps in the cloud. We don't store any files locally at all.
All business docs are at Google and they're safe there and they handle the
backups.
I don't see any advantage to hosting local
email on your own server. It's not worth your time. My time is worth $550/hr
roughly when looking at net profit so spending even one hour a year trying to
manage or fix my own email server would cost me more than what I pay Google.
We're grandfathered in and think we get 10 free
users for gsuite and I pay to upgrade storage to 100gb on 2-3 users so we pay
less than $60 a year to Google for everything. Dirt cheap and great peace mind.
This is relating to our internal business use.
For customer email, we never offered it and never will. Just recommend a free
Gmail account and go live your best life not having to support email.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023, 8:47 PM Steve Jones
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
O365 handles SMTP relay for scanners and such
really well, we just dealt with it a bunch. authenticated IP. I dont scan to a
flatbed because the Edsel was before my time :-)
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:03 PM Chuck McCown via
AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
I prefer to have it in house for the 10-20
email addresses it serves for employees and other business email addresses. It
is free that way and we don’t have to worry about anything else. But for some
reason the server hangs and needs to get rebooted, usually about the same time
each day.
Google got difficult, especially for email
chains and other things so we stopped using them some time ago. For example,
our scanner stopped being able to send emails due to something gmail did.
From: Steve Jones
Sent: Thursday, March 9, 2023 11:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mail servers
How much is your time worth. The free internal
server is costing you this. We are still using rackspace for subscriber mail
and our office emails since its same domain and a pita to set up split routing
for the mail. The cost of our mail is covered by the folks who have dropped
service but wanted to keep their email, we actually make a tidy profit to cover
any administrative stuff.
for my business I use google. 6 bucks a month
per user. The way I look at it is if im not making 6 bucks per guy a month I
have bigger problems than my email. Im a nerd, 20 years ago dicking around with
email servers would have been a blast. but now its like maintaining a battery
powered inverter just so i can still use my corded drill. I can, it will work,
its not that complicated, but its nonetheless a dumb waste of time.
dealing with hosting email servers is a total
waste of any resources unless your monetizing it. too large an attack vector
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 10:18 AM Chuck McCown
via AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote:
It is only for our own company email. No
customers on it.
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