The reason I fear not having LVD is that the load becomes the LVD and it might not have any hysteresis. If a 1kw Tarana cluster pulls 0A at 43.9V and then 20A at 44V, we would have a problem. That said, I would use a managed LDM from ICT anyway, so I could easily set load shed voltages to avoid this.
On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 3:34 PM Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com> wrote: > The worst case scenario is when the power comes back on after an extended > outage. So the batts are going to present a heavy load plus all your other > loads. > I always doubled what I needed to run the loads by themselves and made > sure the current limiting would not exceed safe charging currents. > > If the batts went too low, the voltage may not come back to operational > level until they have charged a bit. If you have a LVD on the loads that > will speed things up, assuming the LVD will reconnect, but it must have > enough hysteresis because when the loads attach the voltage will drop again > and if you don’t have enough hysteresis it will oscillate and probably do > ungood things to the loads. > > That is why I quit using LVDs. > > > > *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies > *Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2024 2:27 PM > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant > > > Let me see if I understand this. I get an AC/DC 48V power supply. We have > used DuraComm in the past. I wire the power supply directly to the LFP > battery pack and wire the power supply directly to the 48V equipment. Does > the LFP have logic in it to regulate the charging? > > > > My guess is my power supply has to be rated higher than my equipment > demand by a few AMPs so it can charge batteries and run equipment. Is > there some way to limit charging AMPs on battery pack so it doesn't over > load the power supply? > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com > > > > Myakka Communications > > www.Myakka.com > > > > ------ > > > > Thursday, January 4, 2024, 3:57:48 PM, you wrote: > > > > I was talking about connecting the LFP pack straight to a current limiting > power supply and not using a battery charger. > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 2:43 PM <dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> “the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated charge current” >> >> You don’t have to worry about that one. The charger won’t draw more >> current than what is being consumed to charge the batteries. I’d argue you >> should oversize the max current. If the power supply can’t supply the >> current the chargers are demanding then it’ll do whatever it’s over current >> fault condition is….which might be current limiting, or shutting down and >> waiting for you to power cycle. Oversize it so you can supply the charger >> whatever it wants and you aren’t at risk of over heating, tripping, or >> other badness. >> >> PSU’s often get de-rated for temperature, and sometimes the max current >> on the sticker is only for transient peak current rather than continuous >> current. Make it bigger so it meets all the demand on it and nothing bad >> happens even in sub-optimal conditions. >> >> >> >> -Adam >> >> >> >> *From:* AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *castarritt >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 04, 2024 11:28 AM >> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> >> >> I've also thought about trying just some basic Meanwell AC/DC supplies >> with LFP packs instead of a fancy ICT or other charger. As long as I am >> using a power supply that will sag voltage instead of trip offline when max >> current is reached, the max current doesn't exceed the LFP pack's rated >> charge current, and I can set the supply's voltage to the appropriate >> value, I don't see why I need anything more. The LFP pack's BMS already >> has LVD, and we aren't using fancy multi stage charge profiles with boost >> voltage on lithium packs. Am I missing something here? So far, bossman >> has preferred just playing it safe and paying for the ICT shelves we know >> work, so I haven't got to try it yet. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:17 AM castarritt <castarr...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> We also use ICT and have been running them with both ISP Supplies and >> Power Storage Solutions LFP packs without any problems. The only downside >> is that the ICT shelf can't read the state of charge or give your an >> estimated runtime remaining with lithium batteries. I understand they >> won't have a super accurate reading on those parameters without >> communicating with the BMS, but I wish they could at least calculate AH in >> and out vs set AH capacity to give a rough estimate. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 9:49 AM Gino A. Villarini <g...@aeronetpr.com> >> wrote: >> >> We are having great success with signature solar units and ICT >> rectifiers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <https://aeronetpr.com/> >> >> *Gino Villarini* >> Founder / President >> @GVillarini >> 787.273.4143 | >> >> <https://www.inc.com/profile/aeronet> >> >> <https://www.facebook.com/aeronetpr> >> >> <https://www.instagram.com/aeronetpr/> >> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/aeronet-broadband-corp> >> >> <https://twitter.com/aeronetpr> >> >> <https://www.youtube.com/user/AeroNetPR> >> >> <https://wa.me/17872734144> >> >> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968 >> >> [image: AeroNet-dula-network-access.jpg] <https://store.homefi.pr/> >> >> *From: *AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> on behalf of Mark - Myakka >> Technologies <m...@mailmt.com> >> *Date: *Thursday, January 4, 2024 at 11:38 AM >> *To: *AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> >> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> I'm starting to get flashbacks for the last time I did this. It wasn't a >> pleasant experience. Felt I was oversold un-needed over priced options. >> Trying to be more careful this time. >> >> Looking at the LifePO4 stuff and finding a bunch of rack mount batteries, >> but they all seem to be China made. Can anyone recommend a brand they are >> using. Also, can't find any rack mount chargers to to charge these guys. >> Has anyone here actually setup a LifePO4 plant. I may have to stay with >> the Lead Acid stuff, rather not be doing a DIY system or be on the bleeding >> edge. >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com >> >> Myakka Communications >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myakka.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931390821%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=pA6vfvxRSGWsI7swrVsTbzp6IYiq62CJO0AcRRUAyiE%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://www.myakka.com/> >> >> ------ >> >> Wednesday, January 3, 2024, 8:02:33 PM, you wrote: >> >> PKvA> Something to think about is that LiFePO4 is good to 100% DOD, >> whereas we >> PKvA> should all be keeping lead-acids above 50% DOD if we want >> lifespan.. So >> PKvA> 460Ah lifepo4 = 920Ah lead-acid in my mind.. >> >> PKvA> Peter Kranz >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unwiredltd.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931390821%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=t9Hy5%2BztcKAjRibHx1pcXUM8vciPDMeGmf5JRA2%2BN3U%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> >> PKvA> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 >> PKvA> Mobile: 510-207-0000 >> PKvA> pkr...@unwiredltd.com >> >> PKvA> -----Original Message----- >> PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof >> PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 4:57 PM >> PKvA> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> >> PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> PKvA> Of course the algorithms will be showing us all ads for LiFePO4 >> batts now. >> PKvA> I got one the other day for this one: >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.epochbatteries.com%2Fproducts%2F12v-460ah-lifepo4-battery-ip67-heate&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931390821%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PKVNWn62PB%2Fp2ghr%2FCJDFp%2B9lKmlqyHk19SiqbLWBNI%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://www.epochbatteries.com/products/12v-460ah-lifepo4-battery-ip67-heate> >> PKvA> d-bluetooth-victron-comms >> >> PKvA> 12V 460Ah in an 8D size. What some people call a "truck battery". >> That's a >> PKvA> lot of Ah. We have some 10+ year old old 8D AGMs I think they are >> rated 225 >> PKvA> Ah. Heavy suckers. Just hauling them to the recycler at EOL is a >> chore. >> >> >> PKvA> -----Original Message----- >> PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Peter Kranz via AF >> PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2024 5:31 PM >> PKvA> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> >> PKvA> Cc: Peter Kranz <pkr...@unwiredltd.com> >> PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> PKvA> Yes you poll each unit. Each battery in the string has a Battery ID >> set by >> PKvA> dip switches. If you have a compatible inverter/charger it polls >> each >> PKvA> battery to pull data points of interest. Take a look at this >> battery, it >> PKvA> supports CANBUS, RS-485, and chaining batteries with battery ID's >> set by dip >> PKvA> switch. >> >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsignaturesolar.com%2Feg4-ll-s-48v-100ah-server-rack-battery%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931390821%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=BksZawSZCzqdhwhfGqQ3uUWLAHjXnFuDunkKZDVu8dY%3D&reserved=0 >> <https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-ll-s-48v-100ah-server-rack-battery/> >> >> PKvA> Peter Kranz >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unwiredltd.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=M7gx5YcVZFjwYmViVPgp3eab%2BrffEAxBLfeg4QwNL14%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> >> PKvA> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 >> PKvA> Mobile: 510-207-0000 >> PKvA> pkr...@unwiredltd.com >> >> PKvA> -----Original Message----- >> PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof >> PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 2:57 PM >> PKvA> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com> >> PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> PKvA> It's kind of an awkward situation. Suppose you have 4 batteries >> total, each >> PKvA> with their own internal BMS. Do you want to monitor each battery? >> Maybe. >> PKvA> My first impression is no. But perhaps knowing that battery #3 has >> a >> PKvA> problem would be a good thing, like your car telling you all the >> tires are >> PKvA> at 34 psi except front right is at 26 psi. Chuck's forklift >> probably just >> PKvA> has one battery (and no SNMP). >> >> PKvA> -----Original Message----- >> PKvA> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Bill Prince >> PKvA> Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2024 4:42 PM >> PKvA> To: af@af.afmug.com >> PKvA> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> PKvA> Somebody could make a bluetooth to SNMP adapter/converter or >> something. >> PKvA> Nah, that would be too hard. >> >> >> PKvA> bp >> PKvA> <part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com> >> >> PKvA> On 1/3/2024 2:37 PM, Peter Kranz via AF wrote: >> >> There are rack mount LiFePO4 batteries with other options than >> Bluetooth. >> >> RS232, RS485, and HTTP/SNMP are available with LiFEPO4 batteries built >> >> in BMS systems.. The HTTP/SNMP ones are the hardest to find, pretty >> >> much all support RS232/CANBUS. Some inverter/rectifier shelf vendors >> >> now support >> >> RS485 monitoring of your battery strings natively. >> >> >> >> Peter Kranz >> >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unwiredltd.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=M7gx5YcVZFjwYmViVPgp3eab%2BrffEAxBLfeg4QwNL14%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> >> >> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 >> >> Mobile: 510-207-0000 >> >> pkr...@unwiredltd.com >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 12:21 PM >> >> To: af@af.afmug.com >> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> >> >> Conservatism and institutional momentum, well said. Same here. >> >> >> >> One issue apparently is can't charge them below 0 degrees C. But I'm >> >> seeing ads claiming internal heaters and temperature controls. Can't >> >> speak from experience, I just put in a bunch more AGMs. >> >> >> >> I also see from specs a lot about Bluetooth. I'm used to lots of >> >> controls and stats via web and SNMP from some of the high end charge >> >> controllers like Alpha, Eltek, ICT. How do you access the battery >> >> control module at a remote site if it's Bluetooth? Or is that just for >> PKvA> initial commissioning? >> >> >> >> ---- Original Message ---- >> >> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com >> >> Sent: 1/3/2024 1:25:16 PM >> >> To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'" <af@af.afmug.com> >> >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> >> >> We're still building with VRLA batteries...but that's just the >> >> combination of conservatism and institutional momentum. I'd look >> PKvA> seriously at LiFePo4. >> >> For compatibility with existing rectifiers you'd look for battery >> >> packs with a charge controller and management built in. You can then >> >> disable the temperature comp, equalization, or whatever other >> >> smart/fancy stuff the rectifier would do and just let it serve as a >> >> power supply and distribution device. >> >> >> >> There's a devil on my shoulder telling me that with Lithium drop in >> >> replacements with integrated controllers I can eliminate the rectifier >> >> and just get a beefy 48V power supply and a PDU. But there's that >> >> institutional momentum thing again. >> >> >> >> -Adam >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com> On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka >> >> Technologies >> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2024 1:45 PM >> >> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group <af@af.afmug.com> >> >> Subject: [AFMUG] -48v power plant >> >> >> >> Happy New Year >> >> >> >> I need to build a new -48v power plant. Last one I did was about 7 >> >> years ago. I know things have changed. Any recommendations on >> PKvA> manufacturers? >> >> What are thoughts about LiFePO batteries vs the standard telcomm >> PKvA> batteries? >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com >> >> >> >> Myakka Communications >> >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myakka.com%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4l6uR%2FKCpfdo71I9eUToLy3V35afO7qEoRN7NbRIB1c%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://www.myakka.com/> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> AF mailing list >> >> AF@af.afmug.com >> >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faf.afmug.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faf_af.afmug.com&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uQOmNtQ8AtJSqcoMzmk9bxO%2F5TIgEyFachsFhJss6BI%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> >> >> >> >> PKvA> -- >> PKvA> AF mailing list >> PKvA> AF@af.afmug.com >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faf.afmug.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faf_af.afmug.com&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uQOmNtQ8AtJSqcoMzmk9bxO%2F5TIgEyFachsFhJss6BI%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> >> >> PKvA> -- >> PKvA> AF mailing list >> PKvA> AF@af.afmug.com >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faf.afmug.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faf_af.afmug.com&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uQOmNtQ8AtJSqcoMzmk9bxO%2F5TIgEyFachsFhJss6BI%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> >> PKvA> -- >> PKvA> AF mailing list >> PKvA> AF@af.afmug.com >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faf.afmug.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faf_af.afmug.com&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uQOmNtQ8AtJSqcoMzmk9bxO%2F5TIgEyFachsFhJss6BI%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> >> >> PKvA> -- >> PKvA> AF mailing list >> PKvA> AF@af.afmug.com >> PKvA> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faf.afmug.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faf_af.afmug.com&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uQOmNtQ8AtJSqcoMzmk9bxO%2F5TIgEyFachsFhJss6BI%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faf.afmug.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faf_af.afmug.com&data=05%7C02%7Cgav%40aeronetpr.com%7C3433113bdfe540761c1b08dc0d3b2785%7C786321c8ea74460e81c62d3479dd1728%7C0%7C0%7C638399794931547004%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=uQOmNtQ8AtJSqcoMzmk9bxO%2F5TIgEyFachsFhJss6BI%3D&reserved=0 >> <http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > ------------------------------ > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >
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