The 450 is processor limited but really, upgrading the processor and coming out with newer firmware doesn’t mean a full forklift. However, the clients also have some horsepower limitations. The tradeoff though, is better masking. There are some directions to go here because of the better radio but it’s going to take 2-3 years to make that happen.
Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:30 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Them's fightin words to a lot of people around these parts. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "Andy Trimmell via Af" <af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:28:23 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The real question is why pay for the 450 when the ePMP does the same thing if not better for the price point. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:24 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well no not on existing hardware, but it doesn't look like PMP450 can do that either. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "Ken Hohhof via Af" <af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:22:39 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons On the existing hardware? At one time there were hints about 256QAM and 40MHz channels, hence the GigE interface on the AP. They delivered on 256QAM, I haven’t heard about 40 MHz in awhile, I doubt 80 MHz is under consideration. Also they needed a lot of firmware optimization to get throughput to a single SM up to what the RF can do now. So I’d guess even 100 Mbps to a single SM would take new hardware. From: Mike Hammett via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:13 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Well the Mimosa will deliver 620 megabits or so to two clients at the same time, so 1,200+ total from one AP. How much room is there for growth in 450? *shrugs* How long has it been out and how much growth have you seen thus far? ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "Craig Schmaderer via Af" <af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 12:10:16 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Is the 450 still only 20mhz and under? If they even can or do up it to like 80mhz like mimosa is going to do, how close could the 450 get to 600meg cap with just firmware upgrades? Any guesses? Craig R. Schmaderer CEO | Skywave Wireless, Inc. Ph: 402-372-1975 | Fax: 402-372-1058 Direct: 402-372-1052 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 10:25 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm just glad to have fewer steps. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ________________________________ From: "Josh Reynolds via Af" <af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 1:36:26 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons The whole point of their waveguide idea was to remove the jumper loss. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:06 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af <mailto:af@afmug.com> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af <af@afmug.com> wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ________________________________ From: "Mark Radabaugh via Af" <af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time "you" (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, "we" (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af <af@afmug.com> wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ________________________________ From: "Kurt Fankhauser via Af" <af@afmug.com> To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/> tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af <af@afmug.com> wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af <af@afmug.com> wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had to"try" some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist.... I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an omni antenna you can't get maximum legal EIRP out of the ePMP. 8. 450 link tests and SM modulation is pretty stable and predictable. EPMP seems like its all over the place. I don't think I have yet seen EPMP linktest get full up or down outside of a lab environment. There might be other reasons but I'm pretty tired and was heading for bed. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com <http://www.wavelinc.com/> tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 5:05 PM, TJ Trout via Af <af@afmug.com> wrote: I haven't been keeping real up to date on current generation ptmp offerings but we have a new site going up and I need to decide pretty quickly on some equipment. For the guys who have been using both 450 and epmp do you have any pros and cons ? Any reason to spend the extra money when epmp seems to have the same if not better performance , sync, etc? My gut says 450 is going to be my best long term solution but with all of the positive epmp feedback it's hard to justify the extra money? -- Mark Radabaugh Amplex m...@amplex.net 419.837.5015 x 1021
