We have been using new and old DWDM gear from Adva Optical Networking on a span from Tremonton to St. George (~400 miles) in Utah with lots of add/drops along the way and several ROADMs. We're upgrading to their newer stuff (100G waves), but a lot of the older stuff (40x 10G) we have in place has been running for 5+ years without any reboot or problems. They are very cost-competitive but also a rock-solid platform. They get my recommendation for an active system.
Roger On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Paul Stewart <p...@paulstewart.org> wrote: > Cool .. very cool .. > > Thanks Faisal for your help as always .. Josh for your comments... > appreciate it... > > Paul > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds > Sent: August 14, 2016 3:02 PM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > > The fiberstore CWDM stuff is stupid cheap and just works. It's passive > after all. I haven't used any of their DWDM equipment. > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> > wrote: > > There are some excellent tutorials on this topic. > > > > Fiberstore has a very nice collection of them... > > > > http://www.fs.com/wdm-networking-cid-9.html > > > > Start with the tutorial on basics first and then build on it with others. > > > > http://www.fs.com/do-you-know-all-these-terminologies-of-wdm-technolog > > y-aid-474.html > > > > > > Here is another nice set of tutorials, clearly written.. > > http://www.fiber-optic-tutorial.com/category/network-solutions/wdm-opt > > ical-network/cwdm-dwdm-mux-demux > > > > ** The only difference conversationally between an "Active" vs "Passive" > CWDM/DWDM gear is as to who is doing the 'Standard Color' to "CWDM/DWDM" > optical conversions. > > This is what consumes/requires external power. (aka, media converter > > packaging) > > > > if you take a media converter and a passive mux/demux put it into one > > box, that now becomes an active solution if you take the media converter > out, as a separate box, then the mux/demux is considered to be a passive > solution. > > > > If the gear on both sides is under your control, then you can skip the > > media converters and just put in the matching colored optics in your > gear on both sides Otherwise you deploy a media converter to convert > between the colored optics to standard optics... both in context of > Ethernet as well as TDM). > > > > In regards to distance and ring topology......there is no issue, just > how you design the fiber path... aka fiber light link budget and optic's > receive sensitivity.. just like RSSI on a Fixed Wireless link.. There are > standard figures you can use for link loss, each panel appox 1 to 1.5db, > (e.g. if the TX is 1-4dbm, and Rx sensitivity is 15dbm, you have approx > 12-15db margin... using two muxes each with a 4.5db insertion loss, gives > you 3-5db for other losses......but if your mux has an insertion loss of > 6db then you will need to look at longer range optics, (higher tx power and > higher rx sensitivity, resulting in more expensive optics). > > > > > >>Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you > prefer and have worked well? > > I have been happy and comfortable in working with the FiberStore > > (fs.com) There are other vendors which others have worked with. > > > > To me, after everything has clicked together in my understanding.... I > now look at a passive mux in the same manner I would look at a Spool of > Ethernet cable.. > > i.e. look at the specs, and the product, the cost, the name of the mfg. > makes little difference other then consistency in delivery and standing > behind the delivered product for the first 30/60 days. > > > >> It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to take the > >> colored paths and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not > missing something... > > > > Yep, bingo you are starting to understand it... > > > > > > And most important, don't forget to buy a Light Meter, it does not have > to be anything fancy even a cheap one ($50) is good enough for deployment > purposes, since you can get relative information from it. > > > > Regards. > > > > Faisal Imtiaz > > Snappy Internet & Telecom > > 7266 SW 48 Street > > Miami, FL 33155 > > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > > > > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org> > >> To: af@afmug.com > >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:07:01 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > > > >> Thanks very much - much appreciate this ... > >> > >> Optical stuff has always been a "weak area" for me ... worked around > >> them for years but 'spoiled' that we added X, Y, and Z per vendor > >> recommendations along with a web interface and things just worked ;) > >> > >> My comments re: colored optics though were very specific to what I > >> consider an "active" solution. A solution where we wouldn't have to > >> put the colored optics specifically into switches on each side for > >> example - realizing that the optics in the "solution" do the actual > >> work .. I'm seen some passive systems where you have to put colored > >> optics into your network gear for example. Those systems were pretty > >> cool though in the sense where you didn't have to power them at all > >> - but that's not what we want to accomplish here .. a number of these > >> fibers we don't "own" both ends for example. Using an 'active' > >> solution we can jump into the middle of the fiber no problem but for > >> handoff to the network itself we need "standard" optics in place. > >> > >> For distance, this two locations with two paths so a ring topology > >> .... one path is 1.1KM and the other path is approximately 3.2KM in > >> length (geographic diversity between locations, separate cable > >> entranceways, separate risers etc) so nice short run. Today we are > >> just using 10KM single mode optics but burning fibers at a rapid rate > .... > >> > >> Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that > >> you prefer and have worked well? It sounds like the costs are mainly > >> the electronics to take the colored paths and "convert" them back to > >> normal wavelength if I'm not missing something... > >> > >> Again - thanks ... appreciate this and really like the "build your > >> own" approach ... with savings expected it makes it easier to look at > >> sparing etc too > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz > >> Sent: August 14, 2016 1:04 PM > >> To: af@afmug.com > >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >> > >> I just want to drill down, for the sake of an in-depth conversation, > >> not just for you but for others who are lurking as well... > >> > >> see my answers inline below:- > >> > >> Faisal Imtiaz > >> Snappy Internet & Telecom > >> 7266 SW 48 Street > >> Miami, FL 33155 > >> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > >> > >> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org> > >>> To: af@afmug.com > >>> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 12:32:57 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >> > >>> Thanks for that.... > >>> > >>> We want something managed and can be monitored ... > >> > >> There is no difference, or anything lost, in this arena, between an > >> 'Active Solution' vs a "designed/yourself passive" solution. > >> > >>> modular in nature if possible. > >> > >> There is no "Canned solution" that can beat the a 'designed passive > >> solution' in this area. > >> > >> > >>> Thinking active as the "endpoints" (routers and/or switches) we do > >>> not want to utilize colored optics nor can we support it in some > situations ... > >>> so MUX for sure. > >>> > >> > >> I think you are mis-understand how this actually works/gets > implemented... > >> All CWDM/DWDM solutions have a passive fiber Mux/Demux in the box, > >> the only difference is what you see (out side the box) as optic options. > >> > >> e.g. each side just looks like this...... (passive mux/demux)---> > >> {(Colored optics <--> SMF Optics)in a managed Media Converter} > >> (One can use a managed modular media converter or a managed switch > for this). > >> > >>> While we operate a WISP, this is part of our core network in one > >>> city between two data centers so we want high quality > >> > >> There is nothing 'lost' or 'gained' in this area, only the perception > >> of what is under the hood. > >> > >>> with a lower than we're used to price tag :) We would start with > >>> 40x10G likely and see how it goes > >> > >> Be prepaid for some serious pain to the wallet for lots of marketing > >> BS to justify that from those selling canned solutions. > >> Also pay attention to the Cost and power range of the required > >> optics, (do you power budget calcs due to insertion loss) > >> > >> My suggestion would be as follows:- > >> For a moment, forget about which solution you are going to buy, take > >> a bit of time to 'engineer' a passive solution, and just pencil in > >> the figures, for all the components... > >> > >> Use this as a baseline to value the solution you are actually looking > >> to buy, or negotiate for... > >> > >> (when I do such an exercise, 40c DWDM mux/demux units are running > >> less than $2k each, low insertion loss units(3-4.5db), 100mhz > >> channels, Colored optics (15db > >> margin) are under $300 each. You can add 10g SFP+/SFP+ media > >> converter for each side ($900each) or you can add your favorite brand > >> of 10g 48 port switches to each side ...(running anything between $1000 > to $1500 on the 2ndary markets). > >> > >> This would help in establish the value proposition and make you > >> comfortable with what you end up going with. > >> > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks! > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz > >>> Sent: August 14, 2016 11:16 AM > >>> To: af@afmug.com > >>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >>> > >>> Technically speaking, there is no magic to CWDM or DWDM solution.... > >>> You can go with a 'canned' solution from folks such as > >>> Ciena/Cisco/etc etc etc or you can create your own with the required > >>> pieces, in the simplest form all one needs is couple of passive > >>> Mux/Demux units, colored optics and a Switch/Media Converters (ones > >>> that you can read the light levels from). > >>> > >>> Depending on length of the fiber, you may or may not need anything > >>> more (such as regen units, amps etc). If you are going to design a > >>> solution using passive Mux/Demux do pay attention to the insertion > >>> loss figures on the different products. > >>> > >>> In my opinion, doing a CWDM/DWDM design calculations for a WiSP > >>> should be fairly easy to understand. > >>> > >>> The benefit in designing your own solution, you gain a much better > >>> understanding on what you can do and what you cannot do... (e.g. do > >>> you know that you can potentially stack a DWDM solution right behind > >>> a CWDM passive mux ? .... and you will end up with a much more > >>> flexible solution, at a fraction of the cost of a comparable canned > solution. > >>> > >>> We did a CWDM (8ch) passive solution, along with colored optics, 10g > >>> Switches between 4 different Data Center, for under $12k a couple of > years back. > >>> They way we optimized our design for initial cost, while maintaining > >>> the ability to expand my adding another CWDM or DWDM mux in the future. > >>> > >>> (We went with gear from Fiberstore, we did consult them with our > >>> solution, and they offered us Mux/DeMux units with even lower > >>> insertion loss that those listed on their website for a slight > >>> premium, which in our case was well worth > >>> it) > >>> > >>> > >>> Faisal Imtiaz > >>> Snappy Internet & Telecom > >>> 7266 SW 48 Street > >>> Miami, FL 33155 > >>> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > >>> > >>> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: > >>> supp...@snappytelecom.net > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Justin Wilson" <li...@mtin.net> > >>>> To: af@afmug.com > >>>> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:52:02 AM > >>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >>> > >>>> Are you looking for active or passive? > >>>> > >>>> We just replaced a failing Ciena Mux with an 18 channel passive mux > >>>> for a data center client. Ours was CWDM, but they make a DWDM > >>>> version. Total cost was under 5 grand, including spares. Ciena > >>>> wanted 24k to update the service contract, update software, and > >>>> troubleshoot an alarm state. > >>>> > >>>> Justin Wilson > >>>> j...@mtin.net > >>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO > >>>> xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth > >>>> > >>>> http://www.midwest-ix.com COO/Chairman Internet Exchange - Peering > >>>> - Distributed Fabric > >>>> > >>>>> On Aug 14, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I have always used Cyan. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Stewart > >>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM > >>>>> To: Animal Farm > >>>>> Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >>>>> > >>>>> For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment > and why? > >>>>> > >>>>> We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s > >>>>> priced in the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite > >>>>> expensive to deploy. Hoping to find something more economical but > >>>>> just as reliable? By reliable I mean that it’s deployed for years > >>>>> without having to do anything service impacting to it. For this > >>>>> particular deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t important > >>>>> neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be ok > at this > >>>>> point to consider … > >>>>> > >>>>> Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two > >>>>> physical locations (the fiber is leased) > >>>>> > >>>>> thanks, > >> > >> Paul > >
