I knew that... don’t know where the Tom came from. From: Hardy, Tim Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 1:45 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput
Umm, Tim – not the other guy - author or actor! Coordination distance is actually 125 miles with a 125-mile keyhole +/- 5 degrees around the main beam. You might think this is overkill, but we have seen catastrophic interference cases beyond even these distances, so industry settled on these to make sure that longer main beam cases were examined. A couple of additional things to consider at 6 GHz: The FCC minimum path distance at 6 GHz is 17 kilometers - paths less than this distance can be licensed but there are required EIRP restrictions. Usually, you would want to reduce power on a shorter path anyway to avoid saturating your receivers. Do not forget about c-band satellite ground stations. These transmit in the lower 6 GHz band (some even in upper 6) in magnitudes of power much greater than a fixed point-to-point system. Most of these stations in the States are licensed full-band, full-arc so if a problem is indicated and there is no clutter or other shielding, it is difficult to clear anything. We have seen major issues when these cases are overlooked. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 3:11 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput You have to look out to 50 miles and check the energy coming off your antenna in all directions. Tom Hardy or Liz Creekmore could tell us much more. From: Brett A Mansfield Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 1:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput Okay, so in The valley I'm looking at there is one 6GHz link that is nowhere I near where I plan to put mine, there are two 11GHz links, neither of which would cross paths with mine, no 13 GHz at all, and two small links in 18 and 23 GHz that might conflict. Now to start looking at a product to use. What do people recommend for 6 and 11 GHz? Would it be cheaper and easier to just put up a few hops and use the AF? What do you guys suggest? I got the exact path length. It's only a mere 8 miles. I really thought it would be 15, but I was pleasantly mistaken. Thank you, Brett A Mansfield On Feb 9, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: My teachers told me about the coming ice age... From: Jaime Solorza Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 12:42 PM To: Animal Farm Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput Trust the math... It's science and engineering based.... Like global warming.... Zaz. Toooooo easy.... Recipes on the way On Feb 9, 2017 9:27 AM, "Ken Hohhof" <af...@kwisp.com> wrote: Something else that gets some people into trouble is the difference in how path loss and rain fade act with increased distance. The post Mike linked to makes this clear. We get used to double the distance = 6 dB more path loss, which can be made up via antenna gain. But double the distance potentially means double the rain fade in dB. So 40 dB could become 80 dB. You’re not going to make that up with bigger dishes. Of course, your local weather patterns are also a factor. If you typically get big storms with heavy rain for 20+ miles, this analysis is correct. But if you typically get little popup storms, or front boundaries that move across a microwave path without actually raining on the entire path, this analysis is overly pessimistic. It also matters whether the path is north-south or east-west, if like us you typically get storms moving from west to east. How people use the Internet is also a factor. It used to be, as long as you could get email and look stuff up on Google, your Internet was working. But now if an HD video stream stops to rebuffer, you have “no Internet”. Which may seem silly to us, but if watching movies is the only thing you use the Internet for, and you can’t watch movies, then your Internet is broken. And while 10 years ago people were doing totally new things via the Internet, today they are more likely replacing something like satellite TV with a streaming service to save money or add convenience. But they still expect DirecTV Now to be as simple and reliable as broadcast TV, they don’t expect to pay more for their Internet, but whenever there’s a problem they are told it must be their crappy Internet. From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 9:58 AM To: af <af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput Yeah, I really don't trust them that much either, but they're certainly useful for getting an idea of how different areas compare. Things will certainly work differently in Utah than they do for us in southern Wisconsin/northern Illinois. On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote: Assuming you trust the models. I for one, don't. https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp/posts/956205354504917?match=cmFpbg%3D%3D ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <image001.jpg><image001.jpg><image001.jpg><image001.jpg> Midwest Internet Exchange <image001.jpg><image001.jpg><image001.jpg> The Brothers WISP <image001.jpg><image001.jpg> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com> To: "af" <af@afmug.com> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 9:29:53 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput It may not be a rain forest, but it's not a desert either... there's going to be a big difference between rainzones K and B. According to Mimosa's design tool, the Rain Fade in Utah would only be around 17db, which should make 15 miles easily doable at 11ghz. On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote: At 15 miles in 11 GHz I get 40+ dB rain fade. Only acceptable with 5 or 6 GHz backup. I wouldn't even think about trying 18 GHz at that distance. And this is northern Illinois, not a rain forest. Oh, and you can deny climate change all you want, but in many places the rain models are optimistic. -----Original Message----- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Trey Scarborough Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 9:33 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput I have a 18ghz 15mile link with no issues. and 4' dishes. It was the only thing I could get 80mhz channels in. shouldn't be a problem with 11ghz at all just depends on the equipment used. It also depends on your definition of huge... For some its 3" for others it is 8'. completely acceptable for most rain regions with 4' dishes. On 2/8/2017 7:54 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: > http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/610/img/photo > s/2017/02/08/94/08/sex-offender-sought.jpg > > I've seen this too, doesn't mean I'd recommend anyone do it. > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentC > omputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent- > computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/m > idwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> > > > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > *From: *"Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com> > *To: *af@afmug.com > *Sent: *Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:51:51 PM > *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput > > I have seen an 18GHz link that far with 6' dishes. > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 6:42 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net > <mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote: > > Not a chance at 18. Maybe 11, but that's even far for 11 GHz without > huge dishes. > > Play with Mimosa's designer, Cambium's LinkPlanner, etc. > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> > > > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Brett A Mansfield" <li...@silverlakeinternet.com > <mailto:li...@silverlakeinternet.com>> > *To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com> > *Sent: *Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:38:58 PM > *Subject: *[AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput > > Hi, > > I've never yet done a licensed link and there is plenty of these two > frequencies available in my area. I need to be able to get 500Mbps > at about 15 miles. Is that possible with either of these? > > What kind of real world speeds can I expect out of these and what > channel size do I need to license to get those speeds? > > Is there something else I should consider? What brand/model radios > and dishes, what other frequencies for easier licensing, etc? > > It would be great to be able to get a gig that distance, but I'm > trying to be realistic and get just what I really need to start with. > > No legal advice please, just your experience with it and any > knowledge you'd be able/willing to share with the licensing of these > frequencies. > > Thank you, > Brett A Mansfield > > >
