Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput

[Adam Moffett]

In a world of alt facts and fake news, your lucidity is breath of fresh 
air.
If you blogged I would follow it....and I don't follow any blogs at all 
so that says something.

------ Original Message ------
From: "Ken Hohhof" <af...@kwisp.com>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/9/2017 11:27:17 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput
Something else that gets some people into trouble is the difference in 
how path loss and rain fade act with increased distance.  The post Mike 
linked to makes this clear.



We get used to double the distance = 6 dB more path loss, which can be 
made up via antenna gain.



But double the distance potentially means double the rain fade in dB.  
So 40 dB could become 80 dB.  You’re not going to make that up with 
bigger dishes.



Of course, your local weather patterns are also a factor.  If you 
typically get big storms with heavy rain for 20+ miles, this analysis 
is correct.  But if you typically get little popup storms, or front 
boundaries that move across a microwave path without actually raining 
on the entire path, this analysis is overly pessimistic.  It also 
matters whether the path is north-south or east-west, if like us you 
typically get storms moving from west to east.



How people use the Internet is also a factor.  It used to be, as long 
as you could get email and look stuff up on Google, your Internet was 
working.  But now if an HD video stream stops to rebuffer, you have “no 
Internet”.  Which may seem silly to us, but if watching movies is the 
only thing you use the Internet for, and you can’t watch movies, then 
your Internet is broken.  And while 10 years ago people were doing 
totally new things via the Internet, today they are more likely 
replacing something like satellite TV with a streaming service to save 
money or add convenience.  But they still expect DirecTV Now to be as 
simple and reliable as broadcast TV, they don’t expect to pay more for 
their Internet, but whenever there’s a problem they are told it must be 
their crappy Internet.





From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 9:58 AM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput



Yeah, I really don't trust them that much either, but they're certainly 
useful for getting an idea of how different areas compare. Things will 
certainly work differently in Utah than they do for us in southern 
Wisconsin/northern Illinois.



On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net> wrote:

Assuming you trust the models.

I for one, don't.

https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp/posts/956205354504917?match=cmFpbg%3D%3D



-----
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mathew Howard" <mhoward...@gmail.com>
To: "af" <af@afmug.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 9:29:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput

It may not be a rain forest, but it's not a desert either... there's 
going to be a big difference between rainzones K and B. According to 
Mimosa's design tool, the Rain Fade in Utah would only be around 17db, 
which should make 15 miles easily doable at 11ghz.



On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

At 15 miles in 11 GHz I get 40+ dB rain fade.  Only acceptable with 5 
or 6 GHz backup.  I wouldn't even think about trying 18 GHz at that 
distance.  And this is northern Illinois, not a rain forest.

Oh, and you can deny climate change all you want, but in many places 
the rain models are optimistic.


-----Original Message-----
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Trey Scarborough
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2017 9:33 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput

I have a 18ghz 15mile link with no issues. and 4' dishes. It was the 
only thing I could get 80mhz channels in.

shouldn't be a problem with 11ghz at all just depends on the 
equipment used. It also depends on your definition of huge... For 
some its 3" for others it is 8'. completely acceptable for most rain 
regions with 4' dishes.

On 2/8/2017 7:54 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:
> 
http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/lt/lt_cache/thumbnail/610/img/photo
> s/2017/02/08/94/08/sex-offender-sought.jpg
>
> I've seen this too, doesn't mean I'd recommend anyone do it.
>
>
>
> -----
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
> 
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentC
> 
omputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-
> computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
> 
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/m
> idwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> *From: *"Jeremy" <jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:51:51 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput
>
> I have seen an 18GHz link that far with 6' dishes.
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 6:42 PM, Mike Hammett <af...@ics-il.net
> <mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
>
>     Not a chance at 18. Maybe 11, but that's even far for 11 GHz 
without
>     huge dishes.
>
>     Play with Mimosa's designer, Cambium's LinkPlanner, etc.
>
>
>
>     -----
>     Mike Hammett
>     Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
>     
<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
>     Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
>     
<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
>     The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>     <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
>
>
>     <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From: *"Brett A Mansfield" <li...@silverlakeinternet.com
>     <mailto:li...@silverlakeinternet.com>>
>     *To: *af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
>     *Sent: *Wednesday, February 8, 2017 7:38:58 PM
>     *Subject: *[AFMUG] 11GHz and 18GHz real throughput

>
>     Hi,
>
>     I've never yet done a licensed link and there is plenty of 
these two
>     frequencies available in my area. I need to be able to get 
500Mbps
>     at about 15 miles. Is that possible with either of these?
>
>     What kind of real world speeds can I expect out of these and 
what
>     channel size do I need to license to get those speeds?
>
>     Is there something else I should consider? What brand/model 
radios
>     and dishes, what other frequencies for easier licensing, etc?
>
>     It would be great to be able to get a gig that distance, but 
I'm
>     trying to be realistic and get just what I really need to start 
with.
>
>     No legal advice please, just your experience with it and any
>     knowledge you'd be able/willing to share with the licensing of 
these
>     frequencies.
>
>     Thank you,
>     Brett A Mansfield
>
>
>