To put what I was saying about the role of self in intelligence in terms of Hofstadter's ideas, even simpler organisms are strange loops that evolve their behavior in part by compressing experience into useful, repeatable processes, and thereby define what they are in so doing. Obviously this does not imply self-knowledge, just self-modification. And it is a "strange loop" or "tangled hierarchy" in that compressed "models" then have causal bearing on the causal processes that brought about the compressed models. This is the type of self and self-definition that I think would have to be essential to any true intelligence. When we look at human beings with our high-level representations of self, certainly this part of our self-definition as creative systems, but as Hofstadter takes pains to stress, such high-level models of self typically have limited and specific utility and have almost nothing to do with the deeper causal dynamics that actually constitute creative process.
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Robert Levy <[email protected]> wrote: > The Hofstadter Strange Loop keynote was just posted online, relevant to > this discussion: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/strange-loop-keynote > > > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Jim Bromer <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 6:29 AM, John Rose <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > IMO a "creativity" could be a search through morphisms of experiential >> computational complexity patterns applied on relatively unrelated patterns >> correlated through some expressive indicativistic search potential (the >> best I can articulate verbally). This would only be a portion of what the >> generally accepted view of what creativity is. So with my little math >> subset of "creativity" I would not refer to it as that but it would fall >> under the umbrella. >> >> >> >> It took me a little while to get that one. Even though you cannot >> define an ultimate meta function of imagination, it is imagination >> that can potentially break through the barriers that the lack of >> ultimate meta-generalizations leave in its void. Using imagination >> with rational methods (including the use of key structural insights >> that can leverage incremental learning) are methods that can often be >> used to transcend the limitations of narrow AI. So, even though early >> examples of imagination in AI are too primitive to achieve what we >> think is AGI, they should be powerful enough to demonstrate the >> potential of their application. I personally think that a program >> that is able to do some genuine learning would be able to acquire the >> skills that are necessary to implement variations of the method. The >> flaw in this opinion is that while it might be easy to create a test >> that would demonstrate how learning could be used to implement new >> variations of applied artificial imagination the examples would >> probably need to be cherry picked out of the morass of ineffectual >> complexity that such a test would create using current knowledge. So, >> one opinion is that imaginative creativity is just another AGI >> problem; given a solution to learning in a complex data environment >> (and of learning to outwit the subsequent retrieval complexity) then >> the problems of imaginative creativity would sort themselves out. >> >> > My original question though was if an explicit/a priori creativity >> would need to have an input variable as reference to a self as our human >> view of creativity is based on a similar search result’s (as described >> above) effectiveness. A "creative" solution to a problem, a "creative" >> musical composition. Does creativity rely on a relation to a self as >> possessor and/or observer? Is there a common relationship of creativity >> across selves without self? That’s all that I was thinking about... >> > >> >> I don't believe so. As Robert and I were saying it becomes a "so what" >> situation -except- for one possibly critical matter. If artificial >> imagination can be employed without a sense of self, and if a sense of >> self is implied by AGI then that implies that the imagination can be >> part of the fundamental solution to AGI (because it is not dependent >> on the attainment of a critical base for AGI to emerge). If rational >> methods (narrow AI combined with meta definitions of how they are >> employed during run time) can be used to filter out a lot of the >> useless theories and other noise then imagination can be used to >> further the narrow AI methods. So, my other opinion is that >> imaginative creativity is part of the solution to the AGI problem. It >> can exist within a low level of meta awareness and I believe be used >> to create a higher level of meta awareness that can discern effective >> actions from ineffective actions. >> >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 6:29 AM, John Rose <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > To build an explicit functional creativity you have to go into >> definitions even if the result is the definition. Even if building an >> implicit creativity that emerges from an autopoietic self. Or a relativity >> defined creativity from an observational standpoint. Creativity is >> relational and a mathematical concept of creativity can subdivided. >> > >> > >> > >> > IMO a "creativity" could be a search through morphisms of experiential >> computational complexity patterns applied on relatively unrelated patterns >> correlated through some expressive indicativistic search potential (the >> best I can articulate verbally). This would only be a portion of what the >> generally accepted view of what creativity is. So with my little math >> subset of "creativity" I would not refer to it as that but it would fall >> under the umbrella. >> > >> > >> > >> > My original question though was if an explicit/a priori creativity >> would need to have an input variable as reference to a self as our human >> view of creativity is based on a similar search result’s (as described >> above) effectiveness. A "creative" solution to a problem, a "creative" >> musical composition. Does creativity rely on a relation to a self as >> possessor and/or observer? Is there a common relationship of creativity >> across selves without self? That’s all that I was thinking about... >> > >> > >> > >> > John >> > >> > >> > >> > From: Anastasios Tsiolakidis [mailto:[email protected]] >> > >> > >> > >> > a bit of an exercise in futility methinks this topic, unless the >> definition allowed to quickly screen human and machine "culture" for >> creativity. Since I consider "survival" (of the "selves" you might say, as >> there is strength in numbers and speciation) as the key driver of >> intelligence, it follows that the self must be in all equations. Presumably >> creativity is keeping the self alive and its memes spreading while >> generating new domains and new sub-domains of activity, cognitive >> imperialism you might call it, perhaps I was drinking water from a cup and >> you start flipping and flying glasses and bottles all over the place like >> Tom Cruise in that movie. If barman skills were 100% showmanship then >> probably they wouldn't exist, but since you get a bit of a workout too and >> get your drinks mixed in the process, while partially satisfying the >> demands of innovation seekers, then you probably have constructive >> creativity, >> > >> > As I have pointed out before, the surviving self is a rather >> non-computable entity, eternally waltzing towards its own annihilation with >> little to show for it in the process, so I would not go into definitions >> and algorithms for the self or its creative side, perhaps after creating >> the self I have no need for further definitions, it could well be the self >> has a need for definitions but that is not my problem or yours, is it? >> > >> > AT >> > >> > AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> > >> > >> > >> > AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Jim Bromer >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> AGI >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18769370-bddcdfdc >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
