I remember reading that LSD caused a desegregation of brain faculties, so that patterns of activity produced by normal operation in one region can spill over into adjacent ones, where they're intepreted bizarrely. However, the brain does not go to soup or static, but rather explodes with novel noise or intense satori. So indeed, something else is happening.
I think your idea that ego loss is induced by a swelling of abstract senses, squeezing out the structures that deal with your self in an identificatory way, rings true. It's a phenomenon one usually realizes has occurred, rather than going through acutely -- that is, it's in the midst of some other trial that one realizes the conventional self has evapourated, or become thin and transparent like tissue. The signal to noise ratio on content-heavy tryptamines is very high. 5-meo-DMT which I mentioned is actually light on content but does reliably induce a sense of transcendance and universal oneness. I don't know if 5-meo-dmt satori is an ideal example of the bare ego death experince. It is certainly also found in stranger substances Eric B On 11/24/08, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Eric, > > Without knowing the scientifically measurable effects of the substance your > post mentioned on the operation of the brain --- I am hypothesizing that the > subjective experience you described could be caused, for example, by a > greatly increased activation of neurons, or by a great decrease in the > operations of the control and tuning mechanism of the brain, such as those > in the basil-gangia/thalamic/cortical feedback loop. This could result in > the large part of the brain that receives and perceives sensation and > emotions not being a well moduluated, gain-controlled, and having normal > higher level attention focusing processes select which, relatively small, > parts of it get high degrees of activation by the parts of you brain that > normally controls your mind --- which are often the part of your brain most > normally associated with self control, and thus the self, --- a scheme > selected by evolution so you as an organism can respond to those aspects of > the environment that are most relevant to serving your own purposes, as has > been generally necessary for survival of our ancestors, from a Darwinian > standpoint. > > To use a sociological analogy, it may be a temporary revolution, in which > the majority of the brain's neurons, that normally stay under the control of > the elites, the portions of the pre-frontal lobe that normally control the > focus of attention of the brain through their domination of the > basil-ganglia and the thalamus, losing their ability to keep the mob in its > place. The result is that the senses and emotions run wild, and the part of > the brain dedicated to representing the self --- instead of being able to > control things --- is overwhelmed and greatly out numbered by the large > portion of the brain dedicated to emotion, sensation, and patterns within > them -- so that the consciousness is much more directly felt, without any or > significant interference from the self. > > And being overwhelmed by this sensation, and its awareness of the "being" > and "computation" (i.e., a since of life) of the reality around us--- > uninterrupted by the control and voices of the self --- generates a strong > sensation that such sensed being is all, and, thus, we are one with it. > > If any one could give me a concise explanation, or link to one, of the > scientifically studied effects on the brain of the chemicals that give such > experiences, I would be interested in reading it, to see to what extent it > agrees with the above hypothesis. > > Ed Porter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 10:50 PM > To: agi@v2.listbox.com > Subject: Re: [agi] A paper that actually does solve the problem of > consciousness > > Ego death! This is not as pernicious as it sounds. The death/rebirth > trial is a standby of the psilocybin excursion. One realizes one's > self has vanished and is reincarnated into all the strangeness of life > on earth as if being born. Very much an experience of the physical > vessel being re-filled with new spirit stuff, some new soul overly > given to wonder at it all. A sensation at the heart of most tryptamine > raptures, I think... certainly more overlaid with alien imagery when > induced by say psilocin than say, five methoxy dmt. But with almost > all the tryptamine/indole hallucinogens this experience of "user > reboot" is often there > > As if the user, not the machine, is rebooting. > > Worthy, but outside list scope ._. > > > On 11/23/08, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Ben, >> >> >> >> I googled "ego loss" and found a lot of first person accounts of various >> experiences. From an AGI/brain science standpoint they were quite >> interesting, but I can see why you might not want such account to be on > this >> list, other than perhaps if they were copied from other sites, and >> accompanied by third party deconstruction from a brain science or AGI >> standpoint. >> >> >> >> In fact, some of the account were disturbing, and were actually written to >> be cautionary tails. Some of these accounts described "ego death. " Ego >> death appears to me to be quite distinct from what I had thought of as ego >> loss, because it appears to be associated with a sense of fearing death >> (which presumably one would not do if one had lost one's ego), which in > some >> instances occurred after, or intermitantly with, periods of having sensed > a >> lost of ego, and was associated with a feat that one was permanently > loosing >> that sense of self that would be necessary for normal human existence. >> Several people reported having disturbing repercussions from such trips > for >> months or longer. >> >> >> >> But some of the people who reported ego loss said they felt it was a >> valuable experience. >> >> >> >> I forget exactly what various entheogens are supposed to do the brain, > from >> a measurable brain science standpoint, but several of the subjective >> accounts by people claiming to have taken very strong dosages of > entheogens >> described experiences that would be compatable with loss of normal brain >> control mechanism to maintain their normal control, or perhaps any control >> at all. Perhaps this is because overall activation is occurring at such a >> high rate that it cannot be properly controlled, or perhap because the >> control mechanisms themselves are being interfered with. >> >> >> >> Several of the descriptions of ego loss, particularly those associated > with >> less extreme dosages, did not seem that dissimilar in kind, but probably >> quite dissimilar in degree, from the minor types of ego loss I have >> experience briefly while trying to experientially be one with my >> surroundings, or when doing breathing meditation, without the aid of > illegal >> substances. >> >> >> >> Ed Porter >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ben Goertzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 7:46 PM >> To: agi@v2.listbox.com >> Subject: Re: [agi] A paper that actually does solve the problem of >> consciousness >> >> >> >> I don't feel motivated to kill this thread in my role as list >> >> moderator, and I agree that what's on or off topic is fairly fuzzy ... >> >> but I just have a sense that discussions of various varieties of >> >> drug-induced (or otherwise induced) states of exalted consciousness is >> >> a bit off-topic for an AGI list ... anyway I don't feel it quite right >> >> to share my own experiences in this regard in this forum ;-) >> >> >> >> Ben G >> >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Ben, >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> It's your list, so you get to decide what is off topic. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Are you implying all discussion of subjectively describable aspect of >> human >> >>> conscious experience is off topic? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> At least in my own experience, thinking about introspective subjective >> >>> experiences has played a major role in my thinking about AGI. Thus, I >> tend >> >>> to have a bias toward thinking discussions of such thinking are relevant >> to >> >>> AGI. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> If p-consciousness, such as discussed in Richard's paper, is relevant to >> >>> AGI, then why isn't a-consciousness? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Or, perhaps, your implication about what is off topic was more narrow? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> That is what I assumed, and that is why, in the post you responding to >> >>> below, I was asking if there were any describable non-entheogenic aspects >> of >> >>> the ego-loss experience, other than what I had already described. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Ed Porter >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Ben Goertzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 4:04 PM >> >>> To: agi@v2.listbox.com >> >>> Subject: Re: [agi] A paper that actually does solve the problem of >> >>> consciousness >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Goodness.. I feel like >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> a) it is mighty hard to draw distinctions about these kinds of >> >>> >> >>> experiences in ordinary, informal language... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> b) this is kinda off topic for the list ;-) >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ben >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Nov 23, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Eric, >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> If, as your post below implies, you have experienced "ego loss," --- >> >>>> please >> >>> >> >>>> tell me --- how, if at all, was it different than the sense of oneness >> >>>> with >> >>> >> >>>> the surround world that I described in my post of Fri 11/21/2008 8:02 PM >> >>> >> >>>> which started this named thread. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> That is, how was it different than merely having, for an extended > period >> >>>> of >> >>> >> >>>> time, a oneness with sensual experience of the computational richness of >> >>> >> >>>> external reality around (or perhaps of just ones breathing and feelings >> it >> >>> >> >>>> engenders) --- a oneness uninterrupted by awareness of oneself as a >> >>> >> >>>> something separate from such sensations or by the chattering of the >> >>>> chatbot >> >>> >> >>>> most of us have inside our heads --- other than for the standard effects >> >>>> on >> >>> >> >>>> sensations and emotions one would routinely associate with being >> >>> >> >>>> entheogenned. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> Ed Porter >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> >>>> From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>> >> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 11:40 AM >> >>> >> >>>> To: agi@v2.listbox.com >> >>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [agi] A paper that actually does solve the problem of >> >>> >> >>>> consciousness >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> Hey, ego loss is attendant with even modest doses of LSD or >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> psilocybin. At ~ 700 mics I found that effect to be very much >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> background >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> On 11/21/08, Ed Porter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Ben, >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> "Entheogens!" >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> What a great word/euphemism. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Is it pronounced like "Inns" (where travelers sleep) + "Theo" (short > for >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> "Theodore") + "gins"(a subset of liquors I normally avoid like the >> >>>>> plague, >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> except in the occasional summer gin and tonic with lime)? >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> What is the respective emphasis given to each of these three parts in >> the >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> proper pronunciations. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> It is a word that would be deeply appreciated by many at my local >> >>> >> >>>>> Unitarian >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Church. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Ed Porter >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> From: Ben Goertzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:11 PM >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> To: agi@v2.listbox.com >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [agi] A paper that actually does solve the problem of >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> consciousness >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> When I was in college and LSD was the rage, one of the main goals of >> the >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> heavy duty heads was "ego loss" which was to achieve a sense of cosmic >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> oneness with all of the universe. It was commonly stated that 1000 >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> micrograms was the ticket to "ego loss." I never went there. Nor > have >> >>>>>> I >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> ever achieved cosmic oneness through meditation, although I have >> >>>>>> achieved >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> temporary (say fifteen or thirty seconds) feeling of deep peaceful >> >>>>>> bliss. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> Perhaps you have been more brave (acid wise) or much lucky or >> >>>>>> disciplined >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> meditation wise, and have achieve a seen of oneness with the cosmic >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>>> consciousness. If so, I tip my hat (and Colbert wag of the finger) to >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> you. >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Not a great topic for public mailing list discussion but .. uh . yah . >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> But it's not really so much about the dosage ... entheogens are tools >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> and it's all about what you do with them ;-) >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> ben >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> ------------------------------------------- >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> agi >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Modify Your Subscription: >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>>> ________________________________ >> >>> >> >>>> agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> >>> >> >>> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >> >>> >> >>> Director of Research, SIAI >> >>> >> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> "The empires of the future are the empires of the mind." >> >>> >> >>> -- Sir Winston Churchill >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------------------- >> >>> >> >>> agi >> >>> >> >>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> >>> >> >>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> >>> >> >>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> >>> >> >>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >>> >> >>> ________________________________ >> >>> agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> >> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >> >> Director of Research, SIAI >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >> >> "The empires of the future are the empires of the mind." >> >> -- Sir Winston Churchill >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> >> agi >> >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >> Modify Your Subscription: >> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >> > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
