(I agree with the other points though. My perspective was/is largely mostly concerned with the recent context and I suspect that it has a similar significant influence on others too, because this historical arcana isn't obvious. Although if the argument ever was 'this is tradition, that's why it has to stay like this' I'm not for that either regardless.)
On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Madrid <madridno...@gmail.com> wrote: > Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > > It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak removed. > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> [I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this >> further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to >> lay out.] >> >> Madrid wrote: >> > - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage >> > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, >> >> This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, >> well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to use >> e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the *Agoran* >> culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ >> players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero >> of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific >> American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the >> pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was >> passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when >> almost nobody else did. >> >> In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those >> who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, >> including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only >> response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it because >> my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running >> culture": >> >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora >> -business/2017-June/035225.html >> >> And nix called you out then, too: >> >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora >> -business/2017-June/035228.html >> >> After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else since >> I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was >> explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I >> come here to play this game. >> >> Madrid wrote: >> > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like >> > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to >> > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need >> > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. >> >> You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is *internal* >> not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 years >> is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, traditions >> that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a weird >> oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught >> up in some places. >> >> And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly >> ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well the >> difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike many >> under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no >> consequences. >> >> This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS >> PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. >> This one probably just isn't a good fit. >> >> -G. >> >
