On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Sarah S. <sarahestran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> >> On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: >> > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: >> >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. >> >> >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak >> >> removed. >> >> [snip] >> >> > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if >> > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, >> > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real >> > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes >> > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). >> > >> >> Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based on >> "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of >> evaluating our community standards continuously but generally >> respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an >> isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single >> unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable >> accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently-standing >> practices. >> >> That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond any >> historical points or future changes. >> >> -G. >> >> I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players always > by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a > she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the > game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our odd > little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free to > advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this > doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find them > odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did start > with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think > traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the player > base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work for > them, they should do so. > > What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and women > expressed on discord, which I think is quite consistently discriminatory. E > has also made remarks about racial differences (deleted by moderator) which > in my view were discriminatory. To be clear, I don't remotely feel > emotionally threatened by Madrid, nor do I feel like e > personally discriminates against or devalues other players including myself > - which is why I don't want to ban em. E is, perhaps unfortunately, quite > good at confining these conversations to the abstract. But I do want to > make it clear that I think women ought not be needlessly sexualised, trans > people should be accomodated, and ideologies that approach 'race-realism' > are pernicious and entirely beyond the pale. These are sentences that I > wouldn't think I would have to type to the agora nomic email server of all > places, but I want to make what I think clear. I think it would be quite > appropriate for agora as a whole to affirm in the rules that we are a > diverse place and will always welcome anyone from any minority group. This > is the sort of social norm I believe it would be appropriate to crystallise > and enshrine for all time. > Upon reflection I probably shouldn't have sent this email, except perhaps the last two sentences. It is adding fuel that certainly didn't need to be added.
