Hi Deb,

Are you happy with the latest version?
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-brski-cloud/

Is there anything else that we need to do for you to clear your DISCUSS on
this document?

Regards,
 Rifaat


On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 7:07 PM Deb Cooley <[email protected]> wrote:

> It is much clearer and simpler.  I like it better.  Thanks.
>
> Deb
>
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 4:58 PM Owen Friel (ofriel) <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Deb – what do you think of this PR? It completely refactors and
>> greatly simplifies section 8.2:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/anima-wg/brski-cloud/pull/257/files
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Deb Cooley <[email protected]>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday 26 August 2025 21:00
>> *To:* Michael Richardson <[email protected]>
>> *Cc:* The IESG <[email protected]>; [email protected];
>> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
>> *Subject:* Re: Deb Cooley's Discuss on draft-ietf-anima-brski-cloud-16:
>> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>
>>
>>
>> w/ [DC] below.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 3:27 PM Michael Richardson <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Deb Cooley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>     > 1.  Section 8.2: I'm still struggling with finding the point here.
>> I'd
>>     > like to be a bit more cohesive.  State the issues/recommendations up
>>     > front (i.e tell a story).  It looks like you are claiming that the
>> end
>>     > customer 'has to' run a private PKI, the manufacturer 'could' run a
>>     > private PKI for the whole thing, or the manufacturer 'could' use
>> some
>>     > subset of Web PKI Trust Anchors (which you call something else).
>> I've
>>     > tried to do the 'use the public WebPKI' part below.
>>
>> RFC8995 (BRSKI) is for end customers that want to enroll a device into
>> their
>> private PKI (in a zero-touch way).
>> So I really don't understand what you are complaining about here.
>> There are options.
>>
>>
>>
>> [DC]  Outline the options in a clear and logical fashion.  Preferably
>> without jumping around too much.
>>
>>
>> 8.2 is about the tussle between being inclusive and reducing attack
>> surface.
>>
>> Manufacturers that want to install IDevID into the devices (which BRSKI
>> requires), already MUST have a private PKI for that.  The conflicting
>> lifetime
>> requirements prevent using a "Web PKI Trust Anchor".
>> (There is also a SAN contents struggle, but there are workarounds for
>> that)
>>
>> Is "Web PKI Trust Anchor" (set) even a well-defined term?
>> It's not a single set, as much as people would like to think it is.
>>
>>
>>
>> [DC] that is absolutely correct.  Google, Apple, Mozilla, Microsoft, and
>> many more (Adobe, Oracle, etc) all run Trust Anchor lists.  So saying that
>> one can just use it (like there is only one) is odd, at best.
>>
>>
>> AFAIK, CABFORUM does not define it, web browser and OS vendors decide on a
>> case-by-case basis (based upon criteria established by CABFORUM), if they
>> will
>> accept any specific anchor into their trusted set.
>>
>>
>>
>> [DC] Right, the owners of the trust anchor lists may listen to CA/B
>> Forum, but they aren't beholden to them.  They add the roots that they
>> 'trust' when the rules that they set are satisfied.  This is why you don't
>> want to go down this rabbit hole.
>>
>>
>>     > 2.  Section 8.2, last three paras: These are actually just three
>>     > sentences.  Let's see if we can make a paragraph out of them.  Put
>> the
>>     > last sentence first, and second sentence second, and first sentence
>>     > last.  Something like: "It is recommended for Manufacturers to work
>>     > with their VARs to determine if there is a subset of publicly
>> trusted
>>     > (Web) PKI Trust Anchors that would satisfy all their VARs, and to
>> ship
>>     > only that subset.  Manufacturers need to include enough trust
>> anchors
>>     > in their devices (the Pledges) so that all expected Cloud
>> Registrar's
>>     > can be validated.  While there is no requirement that Cloud
>> Registrar's
>>     > certificates are part of the public (WebPKI) Trust Anchors, it is
>>     > likely simpler and cheaper for most such systems to use these easily
>>     > obtained certificates."
>>
>> okay, I'll see wehat we can do.
>>
>>     > Nits: 8.1, para 2: 'device.is sheltered'/'device is sheltered .
>> 8.2,
>>     > para 3: 'operate enough of a private PKI'/'operate a private PKI'
>>
>> okay.
>>
>> --
>> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh
>> networks [
>> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT
>> architect   [
>> ]     [email protected]  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on
>> rails    [
>>
>>
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