It looks good.  I've cleared my discuss.  TYVM

Deb

On Wed, Sep 3, 2025 at 6:53 PM Rifaat Shekh-Yusef <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Hi Deb,
>
> Are you happy with the latest version?
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-anima-brski-cloud/
>
> Is there anything else that we need to do for you to clear your DISCUSS on
> this document?
>
> Regards,
>  Rifaat
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 7:07 PM Deb Cooley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It is much clearer and simpler.  I like it better.  Thanks.
>>
>> Deb
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 4:58 PM Owen Friel (ofriel) <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Deb – what do you think of this PR? It completely refactors and
>>> greatly simplifies section 8.2:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/anima-wg/brski-cloud/pull/257/files
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Deb Cooley <[email protected]>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday 26 August 2025 21:00
>>> *To:* Michael Richardson <[email protected]>
>>> *Cc:* The IESG <[email protected]>; [email protected];
>>> [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]
>>> *Subject:* Re: Deb Cooley's Discuss on draft-ietf-anima-brski-cloud-16:
>>> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> w/ [DC] below.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 3:27 PM Michael Richardson <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Deb Cooley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>     > 1.  Section 8.2: I'm still struggling with finding the point
>>> here.  I'd
>>>     > like to be a bit more cohesive.  State the issues/recommendations
>>> up
>>>     > front (i.e tell a story).  It looks like you are claiming that the
>>> end
>>>     > customer 'has to' run a private PKI, the manufacturer 'could' run a
>>>     > private PKI for the whole thing, or the manufacturer 'could' use
>>> some
>>>     > subset of Web PKI Trust Anchors (which you call something else).
>>> I've
>>>     > tried to do the 'use the public WebPKI' part below.
>>>
>>> RFC8995 (BRSKI) is for end customers that want to enroll a device into
>>> their
>>> private PKI (in a zero-touch way).
>>> So I really don't understand what you are complaining about here.
>>> There are options.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [DC]  Outline the options in a clear and logical fashion.  Preferably
>>> without jumping around too much.
>>>
>>>
>>> 8.2 is about the tussle between being inclusive and reducing attack
>>> surface.
>>>
>>> Manufacturers that want to install IDevID into the devices (which BRSKI
>>> requires), already MUST have a private PKI for that.  The conflicting
>>> lifetime
>>> requirements prevent using a "Web PKI Trust Anchor".
>>> (There is also a SAN contents struggle, but there are workarounds for
>>> that)
>>>
>>> Is "Web PKI Trust Anchor" (set) even a well-defined term?
>>> It's not a single set, as much as people would like to think it is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [DC] that is absolutely correct.  Google, Apple, Mozilla, Microsoft, and
>>> many more (Adobe, Oracle, etc) all run Trust Anchor lists.  So saying that
>>> one can just use it (like there is only one) is odd, at best.
>>>
>>>
>>> AFAIK, CABFORUM does not define it, web browser and OS vendors decide on
>>> a
>>> case-by-case basis (based upon criteria established by CABFORUM), if
>>> they will
>>> accept any specific anchor into their trusted set.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [DC] Right, the owners of the trust anchor lists may listen to CA/B
>>> Forum, but they aren't beholden to them.  They add the roots that they
>>> 'trust' when the rules that they set are satisfied.  This is why you don't
>>> want to go down this rabbit hole.
>>>
>>>
>>>     > 2.  Section 8.2, last three paras: These are actually just three
>>>     > sentences.  Let's see if we can make a paragraph out of them.  Put
>>> the
>>>     > last sentence first, and second sentence second, and first sentence
>>>     > last.  Something like: "It is recommended for Manufacturers to work
>>>     > with their VARs to determine if there is a subset of publicly
>>> trusted
>>>     > (Web) PKI Trust Anchors that would satisfy all their VARs, and to
>>> ship
>>>     > only that subset.  Manufacturers need to include enough trust
>>> anchors
>>>     > in their devices (the Pledges) so that all expected Cloud
>>> Registrar's
>>>     > can be validated.  While there is no requirement that Cloud
>>> Registrar's
>>>     > certificates are part of the public (WebPKI) Trust Anchors, it is
>>>     > likely simpler and cheaper for most such systems to use these
>>> easily
>>>     > obtained certificates."
>>>
>>> okay, I'll see wehat we can do.
>>>
>>>     > Nits: 8.1, para 2: 'device.is sheltered'/'device is sheltered .
>>> 8.2,
>>>     > para 3: 'operate enough of a private PKI'/'operate a private PKI'
>>>
>>> okay.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh
>>> networks [
>>> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT
>>> architect   [
>>> ]     [email protected]  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on
>>> rails    [
>>>
>>>
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