Ram:
I hold the 'pure vegetarians' in high esteem, now. Did not use to. In fact I tell the story of my bad days, with a degree of contrition, when I persuaded ( actually tricked) a 'nirih' ( simple, harmless ) Marwari neighbor student from my hostel to become a non-vegetarian, citing fake medical reasons ( Dr. Tilok's thing runs in me too), and helped him break into eggs, then chicken and finally curried bits of old tire that went for mutton in my hostel. I did that purely because I thought the guy was so, well, naive and religious, that I thought he needs to step into the world of real people. And he was going thru a depression of sorts, because he was losing his hair. I told him it is because he does not get enough protein in his diet. And I pointed to my lush head of black hair as proof. Told him all the protein I get from eggs, meat, fish, inhaled bugs, whatever. Of course he did not believe me, at first. But my persuasive skills finally got the better of him, and slowly, but surely his defenses caved. Hair was obviously more important for a young man than religious beliefs. He started eating the good stuff.
And his hair? I don't think it returned. He moved to a different block, and I don't remember how things panned out. But I guess there is such a thing as 'paapor praiyosittwa', and I am paying that now as the hairless wonder. And I have regard for the vegetarian, even though, personally I continue to eat the good stuff.
But why did I reply to this? Just to let you know that this ">(and turkey slaughter during Thanxgiving is quasi-religious)" is pure, unadulterated, vegetable roughage. There is nothing 'religious' about eating turkey for Thanksgiving. It is nothing less than a vegetarian myth.
c-da :-)
At 2:43 PM -0500 5/2/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Dear Barua,
"Are you sure it is not allowed? If the Hinduscan show that sacrificing chicken/camels or goats in public is their sacred religious right sanctioned by the sacred religious books, I think they will have to allow." If you know otherwise, let us enlighten.
I am not sure of this - but I think slaughter of cows in India is allowed by law, but Muslims try not to do it public (unless the area is dominated by Muslims). In Shillong's Barabazar - beef is openly sold and slaughtered.
In Kamakhyya they slaughter animals with impunity. Now, I think the Hindu religion (at least in practice in certain parts of India - specially in the East) does sansaction such sacrifices in public. In Hindu temples in the South, North and West are usually 'pure vegitarian'.
My personal take is that animal sacrifies is really not necessary and is inhumane to say the least. So whether Hinduism sancations it or not, I am against such practices - it as if we humans are trying to find an excuse (moksha) to kill an animal and wash away our sins.
BTW: Christians also sacrifice lambs (and turkey slaughter during Thanxgiving is quasi-religious). So they are not above this fray either. They don't do it in the church, but go thru the rituals during Thanxgiving. (And I am NOT against eating meat either). Its one thing to kill for food and quite another to kill for salvation.
In the US they don't allow it for several reasons - public hygine, FDA, animal cruelty laws are strictly enforced etc. Offshoot religions like the Santaria (devil worshipers) sacrifice animals in this country, but quietly and away from cops.
--Ram
On 5/2/05, Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> religious right sanctioned by the sacred religious books, I think they will>Sacrificing chicken/camels or other animals in public. Is this allowed >in the US? No. And why not?
I don't know which way to say. I am tempted to say, "Thank God it is not allowed here in public". Gandhi protested and fought against this in India but failed. But rather decided to say. "Are you sure it is not allowed? If the Hindus can show that sacrificing chicken/camels or goats in public is their sacred> only because the Indian Hindus do not eat >beef, democracy cannothave to allow." If you know otherwise, let us enlighten.
Barua
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ram Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Rajen Barua" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka
>Anyhow, when the Hindus try to impose the prohibition on beef eating in India on >its entire citizens, it basically goes against minorities right in a democratic >country. In democracy, everybody must have the basic freedom. If the entire >community is prohibited to eat beef> > in the cities, and say that India is a Hindu state?function. This is one of the problems in India why we >have a dysfunctional democracy in India.
I am sure if eating beef in India is completely banned. I know that Muslims & Christians DO eat beef in India, and I am not aware that they have broken any laws in India. Is there a law against eating beef in India? Individual actions of some people does not mean the Govt. also thinks that way.
Now, having said that, lets take some cases in a vibrant democracy like the UK or USA.
Sacrificing chicken/camels or other animals in public. Is this allowed in the US? No. And why not?
Or the other example of nudists that Umesh gave.
The reasons these are not allowed is simple (even in a democracy). A democracy allows one to exercise their religious beliefs upto a point. That is as long as the practice of the faith does NOT harm the general sentiments of the people. Same with the nudist example. These practices flount the general sentiments and probably also decency. So, there are limits to a democracy.
In the USA, one commonly hears the phrase ' your rights stop at the end of my nose' or even the famous English example of ' You have the right to carry an umbrela, as long as you don't swing it to affect my walk' (something like that).
So, the question is why does something like what happened in Karnataka happen. First of course, the villagers just know that the cow is being taken to slaughter, and that by itself insencenses the majority Hindu sentiments. This is a basic conflict of Hindus and Muslims ever since they met. Muslims groups in India would do something similar if a pig was being slaughtered (especially in front of a mosque). And its not just Karanataka, it can (and probably does) easily happen in Assam as well.
Even in the US, religious practises of other religions (Hindus/Muslims etc) are tolerated more so because these numbers are extremely low. And the majority ignore these as some 'weird' practice. But I am not they would be that benovolent if say there were 12% of the population practicing Islam or Hinduism in the US. And if they would be so forgiving if some of these were practiced blatantly.
-Ram
On 5/1/05, Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >So just as one would not allow nudists to have sex openly in the > neighborhood park, becos it hurts the sentiments of the >'majority' it can > be argued about banning cow or pig eating too. > > I don't think you can quite equate that to ban on beef eating in India. That > is stretching. > In a democratic country we have many rules based on majority votes which are > not based on religious beliefs. A ban on pronography will be voted by the > majority irrespective of rligion. Same is the case of death penality. These > are soicail rules voted by the majority cotizens and nt based on religious > beleifs. > > But to set a rule against beef eating for everybody only because it goes > against the Hindu belief, is something quite out of the basic democratic > rules. > > Democracy means majority rules with protection of the moniority rights. This > means that the monirity should have the right to eat beef at least i > private. In the cities, the Hindus allow that. Only in rural areas , the > Hindus have the problem. If the Hindus want to ban it, why not ban it even> >> We simply cannot bend the rules wherever we like it. Can we? > > Rajenda > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: umesh sharma > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:34 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka > > Rajen-da, > > I too was thinking about the secular issue of banning cow killing in India. > > I came up with an analogy: There are nudists in USA and elsewhere who would > like to have sex in public - a very natural act --all animals do it --so why > not --it is a free, democratic country. Ofocurse it would be consensual.> > heart.> Bu I don't think it will be allowed by law - even in the 'best' democracy > like USA. > > Why? > Because the majority doesn't like it. Now thats democracy!! > However, Islamic state goes against right to prarctice faith -- there is no > right needed - to eat pork or beef. > If one is really are hard up -----one can eat so many other things -- a dog > if one wishes or cat (as in China) or a horse or camel. Noone objects to > that. > > So just as one would not allow nudists to have sex openly in the > neighborhood park, becos it hurts the sentiments of the 'majority' it can be > argued about banning cow or pig eating too. > > > Umesh > > Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Umesh: > I did not quite get what you tried to mean. I also may not be quite clear in > my views. > What I was trying to say was: Beef eating may be a taboo to the Hindus in > India but not to the non Hindus in India as well as to many Hindus outside > India. (In other words, we may effectively say that only Indian cow is > sacred, but not the British or the American cow.) > Anyhow, when the Hindus try to impose the prohibition on beef eating in > India on its entire citizens, it basically goes against minorities right in > a democratic country. In democracy, everybody must have the basic freedom. > If the entire community is prohibited to eat beef only because the Indian > Hindus do not eat beef, democracy cannot function. This is one of the > problems in India why we have a dysfunctional democracy in India. We simply > cannot have a set of administrative rules which are not supported by the > majority. In countries like India, we will always have this problem because > we donot have a set of citizens who are all equal. (Even in ancient Greece > and Rome, democracy worked only among its citizens which effectively > excluded the slaves). In a country like India, we always have a conflict > with democracy, because even according to the Gita, man are not born equal. > If we believe in a se! cular democracy, the majority must not try to impose > their beliefs or taboos on the minorities. If we want India to be a secular > democracy, we cannot have any prohibition against beef eating because that > is based on religious belief of one community. On the other hand, if we > decide to make India a Hindu state, we can have all type of Hindu > prohibition imposed on its citizens. For instance, in Saudi Arabia, one > cannot eat pork, because that is a Muslim country. > > I was just trying to show the problem that we are having in India. We want > to say to the world that we are a democratic country but in effect we donot > want to practise it. This not because our government is weak or corrupt but > that the comminity, the people, have a problem what it wants to do. That is > the main question. > In the words of Animal Farm, we want to say that we are all equal, but that > some of us are more equal. Once we undertsantd this point, many aspects of > Indian democrcay will be clear. > > We must understand one thing. That is the Britsh have in fact did a jump > start of democracy in India. Left to Indians without the British rule, I > seriously doubt whether we would have anby denocratic rule as we have today. > I think we Indians will benefit if we understand this basic point by our> it.> > Rajenda > ----- Original Message ----- > From: umesh sharma > To: Rajen Barua ; [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka > > Rajen-da, > > I think by reading your piece - it all boils down the fact that if cow > killing is effectively stopped -across India - I think there is already a > law to that effect (??) (which is highly unlikely seing our corrupt govt and > ineffective judiciary) then this excuse would be over. > > In this case, Hindus were punished by other Hindus (like in last years' > Haryana case)-so I had put a caste -class angel -C-da didn't seem to buy> paraded> > Umesh > > Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This type of communal violence by Hindus against Muslims is not uncommon in > India. Cow is a sacred thing for the Hindus which have been made more sacred > by Gandhi and now by Hindutwa. Now that the Hindus have the upper hand after > 1000 years in India, Hindutwa is ready to strike and take the law into their > own hands where they cannot do it through the govt. Except for the cities, > cow slaughter is a unofficial social crime in India. Where people find that > the govt does not do it their way, people form such orgs like Hindu Yuva > Sena, and take law into their hands and do it on behalf of the government. > People can be incited at the slighted provocation or rumor. This is called > Jungle Rule. > > The incident shows that at present Jungle Rule is prevalent in most parts of > India specially in case of such communal violence. I am however not clear > about the meaning of the Head line of the report: "Shame". Shame for what? > What the article try to mean by 'Their Shame' and 'Our Shame'. Who are 'We' > and 'They'? Shame at not having a Rule of Law in such cases of communal > violence in India or Shame at Hindus Yuva Sena doing the thing? Untill and > unless the Hindus give a free certificate that cow slaughter is OK in India, > I think this type of violence will continue. And I don't think Hindus will > give a blanket certificate specially in rural areas. In cities, it is a > different matter. > > Assam may not have this type of communal Jungle Rule at present although we > are not so sure. But we have other type of Jungle Rule for sure. . The > incident shows what may be outcome of this type os Yuva Sena and taking laws > into their own hands. With formation of our new Lachit Sena we are also > going into more of this type of Jungle Rule in more areas. That is why I > objected vehemently against formation of this type of Lachit Sena by AASU > although I did not see much support from the Netters. > > My morale for such news is that Indians should be ASHAMED of such Jungle > Rules whether these are for communal violence or for any other type of > Dadagiri or terrorism. All should be dealt with proper force. This type of > IJ is good and should be encouraged to keep the communities feet on the > fire, and this type of SENAs should be outlawed so that we can insist on > Rule of Law through the democratic process. For democracy s to function, all > men should be treated equal as a first condition. > Rajen Barua > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chan Mahanta > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:10 AM > Subject: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka > > > Barbaric India > > THEIR SHAME, OUR SHAME > > Rightwing activists strip two people for buying cattle > > By Chinmayee Manjunath > Udupi, Karnataka > For What? Hajabba (left) and Hassanabba at the hands of the mob ( In the > Tehelka Website, two people on the ground, naked- cm) > > As more people gathered, the father and son were stripped in front of the > villagers, who remained spectators. The tormentors then called a > photographer to record the show > When 70-year-old Hajabba bought a calf on March 13, little did he know he > would have to pay a big cost for it. That he would be beaten up and> > Rs 50, Hajabba agreed to take the calf in the evening. At 7pm, when> naked. That his 29-year-old son, Hassanabba, would suffer the same fate. Or > that his 68-year-old friend Kanthapujari and his son Satish would be jailed > for a crime they had nothing to do with. The four, belonging to Moodubettu > village in Udupi district, are the latest victims of the communal tension > that is eating into this picturesque region of Karnataka. > > On the morning of March 13, Hajabba visited Kanthapujari at his home; the > two regularly dealt in livestock. On his way back, he met another villager, > Bhogushetty, who negotiated the sale of a ! ! calf. Paying him an advance of> > Mangalore, Karkala and Manipal, a region that has had a dominant presenceHajabba > was on his way in his Maruti van to collect the calf, Bhogushetty stopped > him near Kanthapujari's home and handed over the cattle. Moments later, a > crowd of around 10 people surrounded the vehicle and dragged Hajabba out. > "They just started beating me," recalls Hajabba, sitting on a bed at the > hospital where he spent two weeks after the attack. The assaulters were > members of the Hindu Yuva Sena (hys), a rightwing organisation with presence > in the region. Meanwhile, Hassanabba, worried why his father had not > returned, set out looking for him. "When I reached the spot, there were > about 30 men and they began to thrash me as well," he says, flanked by his > father at the hospital. > > They were then bundled into autos and driven to the helipad at Adi Udupi, > about 2 km away. As more people gathered, the father and son were stripped > and paraded in front of the villagers, who rema! ! ined mute spectators. > "Nobody came to help us. Everyone just stood and watched," recounts a > traumatised Hajabba. > > The hys then called in a photographer. "They made us pose, saying nobody > should ever buy calves after this," says Hassanabba, who lost consciousness > soon after. By then, police reached the helipad from Malpe, a neighbouring > town. They retrieved Hajabba's clothes and took him to the police station. > Hassanabba, however, was missing. "I kept telling them to look for him but > they ignored me," says Hajabba. He was questioned till midnight. But there > was still no sign of Hassanabba. "I don't know where I was all night but > when I got up at six in the morning, I was lying near the helipad, dressed," > says the father, recalling the events of that harrowing night. > > The next morning, when Hajabba registered a complaint, Kanthapujari and > Satish were taken to the police station. "They kept asking us where we were > the last night and we told them we were at h! ome,"! says Kanthapujari. A > heart patient, he was admitted to a government hospital in Udupi on March 16 > under police surveillance and was discharged only last week. > > "Unfortunately, we got the news about the attack late and by the time my > men reached the spot of attack, the son was missing. We suspect that > Kanthapujari was the middleman and Satish has close links with the Bajrang > Dal," says S. Murugan, the Udupi superintendent of police. > > By late evening on March 14, the two were charged with being abettors of > the crime and jailed. Suresh, Kanthapujari's second son, says his father may > have been implicated because he is known to do business with Hajabba. But > Satish, he claims, has nothing to do with the hys. Bhogushetty's name has > not been mentioned in the complaints filed with the police. Satish, who was > in hiding for some days, was arrested and released last week along with his > father. > > The prime accused, Yeshpal Suvarna and Prakash Bhandari, both leaders of > the hys, have been missing since March 14. Several members of the hys have > also gone underground and attempts to contact Vasudev Bhat, a prominent > leader of the outfit in the region, were fruitless. > > Murugan admits tension has been on the rise and it is not the first time > trade of cattle has sparked off violence. Other incidents occurred in> > in hiding and Vanitha's brother, an eye-witness, is also missing.of > Muslims and Christians. > > Weeks before the Adi Udupi incident, Vanitha, a factory worker in her early > 20s, went missing under mysterious circumstances in Hejamadi village. She > had asked her neighbour, Ismail, to help her find a better job. Activists of > the hys attacked both for speaking to each other. When they filed a > complaint, Vanitha was threatened by the hys, and was asked to withdraw her > complaint. When she refused,! ! Vanitha was assaulted. No one knows about > her whereabouts. Till now no investigation has taken place while Ismail is> > Locals cite several such incidents. On March 19, a ceremony was held at a > dargah in Udupi. It was attended by thousands. A local Kannada daily printed > a photograph of two people carrying a green flag with the caption, "The > Pakistani flag in Udupi." Protests began soon, and though the paper was > forced by the police to print an erratum the next day, the town remained > tense. Days later, on March 26, bjp mla Raghupathy Bhat led a procession in > Udupi. Witnesses say Bhat withdrew from the scene as members of the Sangh > Parivar began to stone Muslim-owned shops en route. Bhat was not available > for comments. > > Locals live in constant fear and refuse to even speak about the hys or the > Bajrang Dal. The region, where different communities have co-existed > peacefully for decades, has become fraught! ! with communal tension. "We > always lived together. Why these people cause trouble, I never understand," > says Kanthapujari. > > > May 07 , 2005 > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > >
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