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>Not eating pigs or cow is also a social norm -no spirituality involved
there.
Who is talking about spirituality? We are
talking about the politics of religion which Shiv Seana, Yuva Hindu Sena,
Hindutwa etc do.
Pigs and
cow are forever related to Muslim and Hindus.
>The ban on open public sex --goes against ONLY the nudist
community.
BTW, where did you get the idea that the
Nudists want open public sex? That example won't fly. Take another
one.
Rajenda.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from
Tehelka
Is it really? How about social norms of Meghaloya, Mizoram
etc.?
Rajen-da,
The ban on open public sex --goes against ONLY the nudist
community. Why consider religion different from our social
norms. Not eating pigs or cow is also a social norm -no spirituality
involved there.
Umesh
PS:
But to set a rule against beef
eating for everybody only because it goes against the Hindu
belief, is something quite out of the basic democratic
rules. Rajen Barua
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>So just as one would not allow nudists to have sex openly in the
neighborhood park, becos it hurts the sentiments of the >'majority' it
can be argued about banning cow or pig eating too.
I don't think you can quite equate
that to ban on beef eating in India. That is stretching.
In a democratic country we have many
rules based on majority votes which are not based on religious beliefs. A
ban on pronography will be voted by the majority irrespective of rligion.
Same is the case of death penality. These are soicail rules voted by the
majority cotizens and nt based on religious beleifs.
But to set a rule against beef
eating for everybody only because it goes against the Hindu
belief, is something quite out of the basic democratic rules.
Democracy means majority rules with
protection of the moniority rights. This means that the monirity should
have the right to eat beef at least i private. In the cities, the
Hindus allow that. Only in rural areas , the Hindus have the
problem. If the Hindus want to ban it, why not ban it even in the cities,
and say that India is a Hindu state?
We simply cannot bend the rules
wherever we like it. Can we?
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:34
PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from
Tehelka
Rajen-da,
I too was thinking about the secular issue of banning cow killing
in India.
I came up with an analogy: There are nudists in USA and elsewhere
who would like to have sex in public - a very natural act --all animals
do it --so why not --it is a free, democratic country. Ofocurse it would
be consensual.
Bu I don't think it will be allowed by law - even in the 'best'
democracy like USA.
Why?
Because the majority doesn't like it. Now thats democracy!!
However, Islamic state goes against right to prarctice faith --
there is no right needed - to eat pork or beef.
If one is really are hard up -----one can eat so many other
things -- a dog if one wishes or cat (as in China) or a horse or
camel. Noone objects to that.
So just as one would not allow nudists to have sex openly in the
neighborhood park, becos it hurts the sentiments of the 'majority' it
can be argued about banning cow or pig eating too.
Umesh
Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Umesh:
I did not quite get what
you tried to mean. I also may not be quite clear in my
views.
What I was trying to say was:
Beef eating may be a taboo to the Hindus in India but not to the
non Hindus in India as well as to many Hindus outside India. (In
other words, we may effectively say that only Indian cow is sacred,
but not the British or the American cow.)
Anyhow, when the Hindus try to
impose the prohibition on beef eating in India on its entire citizens,
it basically goes against minorities right in a democratic
country. In democracy, everybody must have the basic
freedom. If the entire community is prohibited to eat beef
only because the Indian Hindus do not eat beef, democracy cannot
function. This is one of the problems in India why we have a
dysfunctional democracy in India. We simply cannot have a set of
administrative rules which are not supported by the majority. In
countries like India, we will always have this problem because we
donot have a set of citizens who are all equal. (Even in ancient
Greece and Rome, democracy worked only among its citizens which
effectively excluded the slaves). In a country like India, we
always have a conflict with democracy, because even according to the
Gita, man are not born equal. If we believe in a se! ! cular
democracy, the majority must not try to impose their beliefs or taboos
on the minorities. If we want
India to be a secular democracy, we cannot have any prohibition
against beef eating because that is based on religious belief of one
community. On the other hand, if we decide to make India a Hindu
state, we can have all type of Hindu prohibition imposed on its
citizens. For instance, in Saudi Arabia, one cannot eat pork, because
that is a Muslim country.
I was just trying to show the
problem that we are having in India. We want to say to the world that
we are a democratic country but in effect we donot want to practise
it. This not because our government is weak or corrupt but that the
comminity, the people, have a problem what it wants to do.
That is the main question.
In the words of Animal Farm, we
want to say that we are all equal, but that some of us are more equal.
Once we undertsantd this point, many aspects of Indian democrcay will
be clear.
We must understand one thing.
That is the Britsh have in fact did a jump start of democracy in
India. Left to Indians without the British rule, I seriously doubt
whether we would have anby denocratic rule as we have today. I think
we Indians will benefit if we understand this basic point by our
heart.
Rajenda
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:20
PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from
Tehelka
Rajen-da,
I think by reading your piece - it all boils down the fact that
if cow killing is effectively stopped -across India - I think there
is already a law to that effect (??) (which is highly unlikely
seing our corrupt govt and ineffective
judiciary) then this excuse would be over.
In this case, Hindus were punished by other Hindus (like in
last years' Haryana case)-so I had put a caste -class angel -C-da
didn't seem to buy it.
Umesh
Rajen Barua
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This type of communal violence by Hindus
against Muslims is not uncommon in India. Cow is a sacred thing
for the Hindus which have been made more sacred by Gandhi and now
by Hindutwa. Now that the Hindus have the upper hand after 1000
years in India, Hindutwa is ready to strike and take the law
into their own hands where they cannot do it through the govt.
Except for the cities, cow slaughter is a unofficial social crime
in India. Where people find that the govt does not do it their
way, people form such orgs like Hindu Yuva Sena, and take law
into their hands and do it on behalf of the government. People can
be incited at the slighted provocation or rumor. This is
called Jungle Rule.
The incident shows that at present Jungle
Rule is prevalent in most parts of India specially in case of such
communal violence. I am however not clear about the meaning
of the Head line of the report: "Shame". Shame for what? What
the article try to mean by 'Their Shame' and 'Our Shame'. Who are
'We' and 'They'? Shame at not having a Rule of Law in such cases
of communal violence in India or Shame at Hindus Yuva Sena doing
the thing? Untill and unless the
Hindus give a free certificate that cow slaughter is OK in India,
I think this type of violence will continue. And I don't think
Hindus will give a blanket certificate specially in rural areas.
In cities, it is a different matter.
Assam may not have this type of communal
Jungle Rule at present although we are not so sure. But we have
other type of Jungle Rule for sure. . The incident shows what may
be outcome of this type os Yuva Sena and taking laws into their
own hands. With formation of our new Lachit Sena we are
also going into more of this type of Jungle Rule in more
areas. That is why I objected vehemently against formation
of this type of Lachit Sena by AASU although I did not see much
support from the Netters.
My morale for such news is that Indians
should be ASHAMED of such Jungle Rules whether these are for
communal violence or for any other type of Dadagiri or terrorism.
All should be dealt with proper force. This type of IJ is good and
should be encouraged to keep the communities feet on the
fire, and this type of SENAs should be outlawed so that we
can insist on Rule of Law through the democratic process. For
democracy s to function, all men should be treated equal as a
first condition.
Rajen Barua
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005
8:10 AM
Subject: [Assam] I/J from
Tehelka
Barbaric
India
THEIR SHAME, OUR SHAME
Rightwing activists strip
two people for buying cattle
By Chinmayee
Manjunath
Udupi, Karnataka
For What?
Hajabba (left) and Hassanabba at the hands of the mob ( In the
Tehelka Website, two people on the ground, naked-
cm)
As more people gathered, the
father and son were stripped in front of the villagers, who
remained spectators. The tormentors then called a photographer
to record the show
When 70-year-old Hajabba bought a calf
on March 13, little did he know he would have to pay a big cost
for it. That he would be beaten up and paraded naked. That his
29-year-old son, Hassanabba, would suffer the same fate. Or that
his 68-year-old friend Kanthapujari and his son Satish would be
jailed for a crime they had nothing to do with. The four,
belonging to Moodubettu village in Udupi district, are the
latest victims of the communal tension that is eating into this
picturesque region of Karnataka.
On the morning of
March 13, Hajabba visited Kanthapujari at his home; the two
regularly dealt in livestock. On his way back, he met another
villager, Bhogushetty, who negotiated the sale of a ! ! ! calf.
Paying him an advance of Rs 50, Hajabba agreed to take the calf
in the evening. At 7pm, when Hajabba was on his way in his
Maruti van to collect the calf, Bhogushetty stopped him near
Kanthapujari's home and handed over the cattle. Moments later, a
crowd of around 10 people surrounded the vehicle and dragged
Hajabba out. "They just started beating me," recalls Hajabba,
sitting on a bed at the hospital where he spent two weeks after
the attack. The assaulters were members of the Hindu Yuva Sena
(hys), a rightwing organisation with presence in the region.
Meanwhile, Hassanabba, worried why his father had not returned,
set out looking for him. "When I reached the spot, there were
about 30 men and they began to thrash me as well," he says,
flanked by his father at the hospital.
They were then
bundled into autos and driven to the helipad at Adi Udupi, about
2 km away. As more people gathered, the father and son were
stripped and paraded in front of the villagers, who rema! ! !
ined mute spectators. "Nobody came to help us. Everyone just
stood and watched," recounts a traumatised
Hajabba.
The hys then called in a photographer.
"They made us pose, saying nobody should ever buy calves after
this," says Hassanabba, who lost consciousness soon after. By
then, police reached the helipad from Malpe, a neighbouring
town. They retrieved Hajabba's clothes and took him to the
police station. Hassanabba, however, was missing. "I kept
telling them to look for him but they ignored me," says Hajabba.
He was questioned till midnight. But there was still no sign of
Hassanabba. "I don't know where I was all night but when I got
up at six in the morning, I was lying near the helipad,
dressed," says the father, recalling the events of that
harrowing night.
The next morning, when Hajabba
registered a complaint, Kanthapujari and Satish were taken to
the police station. "They kept asking us where we were the last
night and we told them we were at h! ! ome,"! says Kanthapujari.
A heart patient, he was admitted to a government hospital in
Udupi on March 16 under police surveillance and was discharged
only last week.
"Unfortunately, we got the news
about the attack late and by the time my men reached the spot of
attack, the son was missing. We suspect that Kanthapujari was
the middleman and Satish has close links with the Bajrang Dal,"
says S. Murugan, the Udupi superintendent of
police.
By late evening on March 14, the two were
charged with being abettors of the crime and jailed. Suresh,
Kanthapujari's second son, says his father may have been
implicated because he is known to do business with Hajabba. But
Satish, he claims, has nothing to do with the hys. Bhogushetty's
name has not been mentioned in the complaints filed with the
police. Satish, who was in hiding for some days, was arrested
and released last week along with his father.
The prime
accused, Yeshpal Suvarna and Prakash Bhandari, both leaders of
the hys, have been missing since March 14. Several members of
the hys have also gone underground and attempts to contact
Vasudev Bhat, a prominent leader of the outfit in the region,
were fruitless.
Murugan admits tension has been on the
rise and it is not the first time trade of cattle has sparked
off violence. Other incidents occurred in Mangalore, Karkala and
Manipal, a region that has had a dominant presence of Muslims
and Christians.
Weeks before the Adi Udupi
incident, Vanitha, a factory worker in her early 20s, went
missing under mysterious circumstances in Hejamadi village. She
had asked her neighbour, Ismail, to help her find a better job.
Activists of the hys attacked both for speaking to each other.
When they filed a complaint, Vanitha was threatened by the hys,
and was asked to withdraw her complaint. When she refused,! ! !
Vanitha was assaulted. No one knows about her whereabouts. Till
now no investigation has taken place while Ismail is in hiding
and Vanitha's brother, an eye-witness, is also
missing.
Locals cite several such incidents. On March 19,
a ceremony was held at a dargah in Udupi. It was attended by
thousands. A local Kannada daily printed a photograph of two
people carrying a green flag with the caption, "The Pakistani
flag in Udupi." Protests began soon, and though the paper was
forced by the police to print an erratum the next day, the town
remained tense. Days later, on March 26, bjp mla Raghupathy Bhat
led a procession in Udupi. Witnesses say Bhat withdrew from the
scene as members of the Sangh Parivar began to stone
Muslim-owned shops en route. Bhat was not available for
comments.
Locals live in constant fear and refuse
to even speak about the hys or the Bajrang Dal. The region,
where different communities have co-existed peacefully for
decades, has become! fraught! ! with communal tension. "We
always lived together. Why these people cause trouble, I never
understand," says Kanthapujari.
May 07 ,
2005
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