I fail to understand why the wrong comparisions are being made here. Laws are far above than public sentiments. Sentiments can swing directions with time, but law shouldn't be. A ban on cow slaughter in India will prompt large scale dissatisfaction. Muslims are the second largest community in India. That is unrealistic. I don't think the sentiment of banning cow slaughter was too prominent in the past. It is a wind blown out of proportions in recent times all of a sudden to political advantages. This will die as it came. So it is totally in-appropriate to discuss such issues in our forum. There are far more important issues which needs attention. To name a few, child labour, dowry deaths etc. Now you got laws against these evils. These evils can't exist in a civilized society.
Prasenjit On 5/2/05, umesh sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rajen-da, > > The ban on open public sex --goes against ONLY the nudist community. Why > consider religion different from our social norms. Not eating pigs or cow > is also a social norm -no spirituality involved there. > > Umesh > > PS: > > But to set a rule against beef eating for everybody only because it goes > against the Hindu belief, is something quite out of the basic democratic > rules. > > Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >So just as one would not allow nudists to have sex openly in the > neighborhood park, becos it hurts the sentiments of the >'majority' it can > be argued about banning cow or pig eating too. > > I don't think you can quite equate that to ban on beef eating in India. That > is stretching. > In a democratic country we have many rules based on majority votes which are > not based on religious beliefs. A ban on pronography will be voted by the > majority irrespective of rligion. Same is the case of death penality. These > are soicail rules voted by the majority cotizens and nt based on religious > beleifs. > > But to set a rule against beef eating for everybody only because it goes > against the Hindu belief, is something quite out of the basic democratic > rules. > > Democracy means majority rules with protection of the moniority rights. This > means that the monirity should have the right to eat beef at least i > private. In the cities, the Hindus allow that. Only in rural areas , the > Hindus have the problem. If the Hindus want to ban it, why not ban it even > in the cities, and say that India is a Hindu state? > We simply cannot bend the rules wherever we like it. Can we? > > Rajenda > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: umesh sharma > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:34 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka > > Rajen-da, > > I too was thinking about the secular issue of banning cow killing in India. > > I came up with an analogy: There are nudists in USA and elsewhere who would > like to have sex in public - a very natural act --all animals do it --so why > not --it is a free, democratic country. Ofocurse it would be consensual. > > Bu I don't think it will be allowed by law - even in the 'best' democracy > like USA. > > Why? > Because the majority doesn't like it. Now thats democracy!! > However, Islamic state goes against right to prarctice faith -- there is no > right needed - to eat pork or beef. > If one is really are hard up -----one can eat so many other things -- a dog > if one wishes or cat (as in China) or a horse or camel. Noone objects to > that. > > So just as one would not allow nudists to have sex openly in the > neighborhood park, becos it hurts the sentiments of the 'majority' it can be > argued about banning cow or pig eating too. > > > Umesh > > Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Umesh: > I did not quite get what you tried to mean. I also may not be quite clear in > my views. > What I was trying to say was: Beef eating may be a taboo to the Hindus in > India but not to the non Hindus in India as well as to many Hindus outside > India. (In other words, we may effectively say that only Indian cow is > sacred, but not the British or the American cow.) > Anyhow, when the Hindus try to impose the prohibition on beef eating in > India on its entire citizens, it basically goes against minorities right in > a democratic country. In democracy, everybody must have the basic freedom. > If the entire community is prohibited to eat beef only because the Indian > Hindus do not eat beef, democracy cannot function. This is one of the > problems in India why we have a dysfunctional democracy in India. We simply > cannot have a set of administrative rules which are not supported by the > majority. In countries like India, we will always have this problem because > we donot have a set of citizens who are all equal. (Even in ancient Greece > and Rome, democracy worked only among its citizens which effectively > excluded the slaves). In a country like India, we always have a conflict > with democracy, because even according to the Gita, man are not born equal. > If we believe in a se! ! cular democracy, the majority must not try to > impose their beliefs or taboos on the minorities. If we want India to be a > secular democracy, we cannot have any prohibition against beef eating > because that is based on religious belief of one community. On the other > hand, if we decide to make India a Hindu state, we can have all type of > Hindu prohibition imposed on its citizens. For instance, in Saudi Arabia, > one cannot eat pork, because that is a Muslim country. > > I was just trying to show the problem that we are having in India. We want > to say to the world that we are a democratic country but in effect we donot > want to practise it. This not because our government is weak or corrupt but > that the comminity, the people, have a problem what it wants to do. That is > the main question. > In the words of Animal Farm, we want to say that we are all equal, but that > some of us are more equal. Once we undertsantd this point, many aspects of > Indian democrcay will be clear. > > We must understand one thing. That is the Britsh have in fact did a jump > start of democracy in India. Left to Indians without the British rule, I > seriously doubt whether we would have anby denocratic rule as we have today. > I think we Indians will benefit if we understand this basic point by our > heart. > > Rajenda > ----- Original Message ----- > From: umesh sharma > To: Rajen Barua ; [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka > > Rajen-da, > > I think by reading your piece - it all boils down the fact that if cow > killing is effectively stopped -across India - I think there is already a > law to that effect (??) (which is highly unlikely seing our corrupt govt and > ineffective judiciary) then this excuse would be over. > > In this case, Hindus were punished by other Hindus (like in last years' > Haryana case)-so I had put a caste -class angel -C-da didn't seem to buy it. > > Umesh > > Rajen Barua <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This type of communal violence by Hindus against Muslims is not uncommon in > India. Cow is a sacred thing for the Hindus which have been made more sacred > by Gandhi and now by Hindutwa. Now that the Hindus have the upper hand after > 1000 years in India, Hindutwa is ready to strike and take the law into their > own hands where they cannot do it through the govt. Except for the cities, > cow slaughter is a unofficial social crime in India. Where people find that > the govt does not do it their way, people form such orgs like Hindu Yuva > Sena, and take law into their hands and do it on behalf of the government. > People can be incited at the slighted provocation or rumor. This is called > Jungle Rule. > > The incident shows that at present Jungle Rule is prevalent in most parts of > India specially in case of such communal violence. I am however not clear > about the meaning of the Head line of the report: "Shame". Shame for what? > What the article try to mean by 'Their Shame' and 'Our Shame'. Who are 'We' > and 'They'? Shame at not having a Rule of Law in such cases of communal > violence in India or Shame at Hindus Yuva Sena doing the thing? Untill and > unless the Hindus give a free certificate that cow slaughter is OK in India, > I think this type of violence will continue. And I don't think Hindus will > give a blanket certificate specially in rural areas. In cities, it is a > different matter. > > Assam may not have this type of communal Jungle Rule at present although we > are not so sure. But we have other type of Jungle Rule for sure. . The > incident shows what may be outcome of this type os Yuva Sena and taking laws > into their own hands. With formation of our new Lachit Sena we are also > going into more of this type of Jungle Rule in more areas. That is why I > objected vehemently against formation of this type of Lachit Sena by AASU > although I did not see much support from the Netters. > > My morale for such news is that Indians should be ASHAMED of such Jungle > Rules whether these are for communal violence or for any other type of > Dadagiri or terrorism. All should be dealt with proper force. This type of > IJ is good and should be encouraged to keep the communities feet on the > fire, and this type of SENAs should be outlawed so that we can insist on > Rule of Law through the democratic process. For democracy s to function, all > men should be treated equal as a first condition. > Rajen Barua > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chan Mahanta > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:10 AM > Subject: [Assam] I/J from Tehelka > > > Barbaric India > > THEIR SHAME, OUR SHAME > > Rightwing activists strip two people for buying cattle > > By Chinmayee Manjunath > Udupi, Karnataka > For What? Hajabba (left) and Hassanabba at the hands of the mob ( In the > Tehelka Website, two people on the ground, naked- cm) > > As more people gathered, the father and son were stripped in front of the > villagers, who remained spectators. The tormentors then called a > photographer to record the show > When 70-year-old Hajabba bought a calf on March 13, little did he know he > would have to pay a big cost for it. That he would be beaten up and paraded > naked. That his 29-year-old son, Hassanabba, would suffer the same fate. Or > that his 68-year-old friend Kanthapujari and his son Satish would be jailed > for a crime they had nothing to do with. The four, belonging to Moodubettu > village in Udupi district, are the latest victims of the communal tension > that is eating into this picturesque region of Karnataka. > > On the morning of March 13, Hajabba visited Kanthapujari at his home; the > two regularly dealt in livestock. On his way back, he met another villager, > Bhogushetty, who negotiated the sale of a ! ! ! calf. Paying him an advance > of Rs 50, Hajabba agreed to take the calf in the evening. At 7pm, when > Hajabba was on his way in his Maruti van to collect the calf, Bhogushetty > stopped him near Kanthapujari's home and handed over the cattle. Moments > later, a crowd of around 10 people surrounded the vehicle and dragged > Hajabba out. "They just started beating me," recalls Hajabba, sitting on a > bed at the hospital where he spent two weeks after the attack. The > assaulters were members of the Hindu Yuva Sena (hys), a rightwing > organisation with presence in the region. Meanwhile, Hassanabba, worried why > his father had not returned, set out looking for him. "When I reached the > spot, there were about 30 men and they began to thrash me as well," he says, > flanked by his father at the hospital. > > They were then bundled into autos and driven to the helipad at Adi Udupi, > about 2 km away. As more people gathered, the father and son were stripped > and paraded in front of the villagers, who rema! ! ! ined mute spectators. > "Nobody came to help us. Everyone just stood and watched," recounts a > traumatised Hajabba. > > The hys then called in a photographer. "They made us pose, saying nobody > should ever buy calves after this," says Hassanabba, who lost consciousness > soon after. By then, police reached the helipad from Malpe, a neighbouring > town. They retrieved Hajabba's clothes and took him to the police station. > Hassanabba, however, was missing. "I kept telling them to look for him but > they ignored me," says Hajabba. He was questioned till midnight. But there > was still no sign of Hassanabba. "I don't know where I was all night but > when I got up at six in the morning, I was lying near the helipad, dressed," > says the father, recalling the events of that harrowing night. > > The next morning, when Hajabba registered a complaint, Kanthapujari and > Satish were taken to the police station. "They kept asking us where we were > the last night and we told them we were at h! ! ome,"! says Kanthapujari. A > heart patient, he was admitted to a government hospital in Udupi on March 16 > under police surveillance and was discharged only last week. > > "Unfortunately, we got the news about the attack late and by the time my > men reached the spot of attack, the son was missing. We suspect that > Kanthapujari was the middleman and Satish has close links with the Bajrang > Dal," says S. Murugan, the Udupi superintendent of police. > > By late evening on March 14, the two were charged with being abettors of > the crime and jailed. Suresh, Kanthapujari's second son, says his father may > have been implicated because he is known to do business with Hajabba. But > Satish, he claims, has nothing to do with the hys. Bhogushetty's name has > not been mentioned in the complaints filed with the police. Satish, who was > in hiding for some days, was arrested and released last week along with his > father. > > The prime accused, Yeshpal Suvarna and Prakash Bhandari, both leaders of > the hys, have been missing since March 14. Several members of the hys have > also gone underground and attempts to contact Vasudev Bhat, a prominent > leader of the outfit in the region, were fruitless. > > Murugan admits tension has been on the rise and it is not the first time > trade of cattle has sparked off violence. Other incidents occurred in > Mangalore, Karkala and Manipal, a region that has had a dominant presence of > Muslims and Christians. > > Weeks before the Adi Udupi incident, Vanitha, a factory worker in her early > 20s, went missing under mysterious circumstances in Hejamadi village. She > had asked her neighbour, Ismail, to help her find a better job. Activists of > the hys attacked both for speaking to each other. When they filed a > complaint, Vanitha was threatened by the hys, and was asked to withdraw her > complaint. When she refused,! ! ! Vanitha was assaulted. No one knows about > her whereabouts. Till now no investigation has taken place while Ismail is > in hiding and Vanitha's brother, an eye-witness, is also missing. > > Locals cite several such incidents. On March 19, a ceremony was held at a > dargah in Udupi. It was attended by thousands. A local Kannada daily printed > a photograph of two people carrying a green flag with the caption, "The > Pakistani flag in Udupi." Protests began soon, and though the paper was > forced by the police to print an erratum the next day, the town remained > tense. Days later, on March 26, bjp mla Raghupathy Bhat led a procession in > Udupi. Witnesses say Bhat withdrew from the scene as members of the Sangh > Parivar began to stone Muslim-owned shops en route. Bhat was not available > for comments. > > Locals live in constant fear and refuse to even speak about the hys or the > Bajrang Dal. The region, where different communities have co-existed > peacefully for decades, has become! fraught! ! with communal tension. "We > always lived together. Why these people cause trouble, I never understand," > says Kanthapujari. > > > May 07 , 2005 > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Assam mailing list > [email protected] > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam > > Mailing list FAQ: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html > To unsubscribe or change options: > http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam > > > -- Prasenjit Chetia Atlanta, GA _______________________________________________ Assam mailing list [email protected] http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
