I'd do the same as C-da -unless I have plenty of free time or contacts - so I can retain my self respect.
In the college days I paid a few bribes to traffic plocemen in Delhi when my documents were not in order or when they had lifted my vehicle for parking without locking it up. Delhi is supposed to have very strict police, they do beat up the rickshaw puller for going wrong side on a one-way street in Chandani Chowk area.
But once, in the beginning when I didn't even have a license some 'kind hearted policeman' even let me off - even as I was making a brave face with excuses.
In Jaipur, I haven't paid a bribe, I have time to go to the police department and pay the fine. Once they let me off, when I maintained my cool.
I think the trick is --- maintain your cool --and either know all the rules (which are alwys too many) or be ready to pay up.
Once we went in a truck to Delhi with iron scrap to sell to a stainless steel furnace. All along the national highway - Highway police acted like highway bandits and even inside Delhi but the truck driver coolly paid them (not more than Rupees fifty ). If he objected they had the authority to ckeck the vehicle for drugs - after taking all godds out.
He even took the vehicle inside Delhi during day time -which is banned - since he knew he could pay off if we was stopped.
In the bargain, he would save many hours and might pick up another set of goods for another destination and make much more money.
If you do not have money you must have contacts - our school's affiliation with CBSE Delhi was possible only after we hired a rare honest, retired officer who had done favors to all (and was doing to us also). The logic he gave for supporting the corrupt officers was that these businessmen also are thieves, so what harm if we steal from them. And he would help a rare honest man if he was really sure of it.
Politicians, municipal officials, journalists, policemen, senior bureaucrats - all get their jobs done for free - through contacts. Militarymen, businessmen, poor people, outsiders- are all charged - the "servicing fee." "Government salary ofcourse , is our right, you pay to get your job done" - so it pays to have a journalist, policeman as a friend - most jobs can be free - if he or she is really a good friend of your and is ready to devote time for your tasks.
But, in general the policemen and the lawyers and judicial clerks are the worst - since they would steal from even those who have been stolen from and let the culprits go scot free. I'm sure it would happen in USA also (it did in the Wild West days) if the public were not aware and be holding everyone accountable nad making sure the system is transparent. Thats where the role of NGOs comes in.
Education helps people in becoming aware of their rights and how to organize themselves for making sure they are protected.
Colombia has unique schools "Escuela Nueva" , which help children become active in democratic citizenship.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It caused a lot of hardship like standing in front of an RBI clerk in Calcutta >office for six hours to get a document because I refused to pay him a bribe.Tsk, tsk. My heart goes out for you. Good for you. You are a credit to your kind :-).On the other hand, I did pay a bribe to a court clerk to get me a birth certificate in Kolkata, which I had to have a foot-path lawyer manufacture for me, since none existed. I knew it was wrong. But I was weak, unlike you.But what are you going to do about it? What is President Kalam going to do about it? You are good and I am bad.But tell me whose kind is running India today? Your kind or my kind?Would I do it again, if I had to? You betcha I would.I will give you another example:My nephew was harassed by a passport control guy at Kolkata on a return trip from Assam, for some clerical inconsistency in hisIndian passport. My nephew, who was in front of me at the line, lost his cool after endless arguments. We were already getting very close to departure. I dragged him behind me, took up position infront of the window and asked the guy what he wanted. He said'ja khusi apnar' ( whatever pleases you). I gave him ten dollars,and we were on our way. There were people all around us.Was I wrong in bribing? Of course I was. But I was not going to leave my nephew behind in Kolkata. I did what I had to do.From your description of your moral uprightness, you probably would not have done that. But what are you going to do about it? What will President Kalam do about it? Tell me though whose kind is running India today? Your kind or my kind?The point is, you are making an untenable argument.Your question about road building corner cutting or whatever are quite hypothetical. I can answer yes, or no. A yes won't make me the cause of India's corruption problems, and no would not make me holier than thou, or not even at par with your integrity. But who is running things, and how will you change it?While at it, try and answer the questions I raised after your agreement with Pres. Kalam's pleas, if you can.At 1:47 PM -0700 5/3/05, Dilip/Dil Deka wrote:O'Mahanta,You said, " Depending on my circumstances, I might. It may not have to be a cash bribe. I might look the other way, considering that it is the norm anyway, and that I won't have to pay even if I get caught; for a seat for my child at the Holy Whatsmacallit School. Or a piece of land I might be able to buy at a reasonable price at Hengerabari. Or for treatment for my ailing uncle at the Uptown Nursing Home. Catch my drift?And now can I ask you the same question, with the same conditions?"DD: What I gather from your (personal) answer is that depending on your convenience and needs, you would bend your moral values that you inherited from your parents. Did I read you correctly?You asked me how I'd answer the question with the conditions you set. I definitely would not accept bribe to augment my income so that I can send my children to Holy Whatsamacallit or buy a property in Narikolbasti or Hengerabari. A main reason why I remained in USA is related - even on my limited income I do not have to ask for graft/bribe for a decent living, and also I do not have to offer bribe to any one to get things done. Did I change after coming to USA? No, I respected the same moral values when I lived in India. It caused a lot of hardship like standing in front of an RBI clerk in Calcutta office for six hours to get a document because I refused to pay him a bribe. But I did not sway.I have seen several postings in the net on moral values and their relativity. In my opinion either you have it or you don't, there are no conditional situations.The last question I asked you was about taking bribe. Let's go another way. Let's say you were managing a road upgrade project near Namti and you could divert 1 lakh of rupees to yourself from the Rs. 1 crore project if the compacting requirements were relaxed. Let's also say that you need the money to replace your wife's old car. Would you cheat the poor people of Namti by giving them an inferior road?O'Deka===================================================================
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 7:43 AM -0700 5/3/05, Dilip/Dil Deka wrote:
O'Mahanta,Suppose you (personally) had stayed in India and were working for Guwahati Development Authority as an architect-manager. Would you accept bribe to allow someone to build an apartment complex in violation of the codes or would you even think about it? If not, why not?
Give me a straight answer, without asking me a question in return. Then we can discuss more.O'DekaDepending on my circumstances, I might. It may not have to be a cash bribe. I might look the other way, considering that it is the norm anyway, and that I won't have to pay even if I get caught; for a seat for my child at the Holy Whatsmacallit School. Or a piece of land I might be able to buy at a reasonable price at Hengerabari. Or for treatment for my ailing uncle at the Uptown Nursing Home.Catch my drift?And now can I ask you the same question, with the same conditions?O'm
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
O'Deka:Are you suggesting that your generation and mine grew up without any moral foundation, either from home or from elementary school?To accept your contention would mean that we did not, that is why the nations leadership today--your contemporaries and mine, are so without any moral compunction.Of course I reject the notion entirely. Because I know that most of the people I grew up with are capable of being as moral as Dilip Deka or Rajen Barua or Ram Sarabgapani or any such icon of kharkhowa-morality.The other questions that comes to mind are:1: If parents of our generation or those after us too, were/are incapable of providing the moral foundations to their progeny, HOW will it change for the other generations to come? Are you not implying that because Dilip Deka or Rajen Barua or Kalam Saheb wishes so, it will happen miraculously? Would that not be a profoundly simplistic wish? A delusion in fact? 2: What has been the state of elementary education in Assam or the vast majority of schools in India? And who teach those kids? Where do the teachers get their own MORAL FOUNDATIONS to pass on to their charges--the pupils? If society's most privileged, the parents of the present , corrupt generation that leads the nation failed to impart moral education to their progeny, at their homes; how do you suppose the high-school graduates or at most a BA from a local college who are the elementary school teachers, have the moral wherewithal to instruct that future MORAL generation to save India from itself? 3: Furthermore, what is the source of morality in India? Where do the people get their moral education from? Do they derive it from their religious scriptures and leaders, or from secular ethics? In the former, if it is lacking today, where will it come for better moral foundations tomorrow? And if the religious teachers were either ignorant or frauds yesterday or are so today, how would things change, I mean unless one is depending on bigger and more temples or more effective bribing of the gods? If it were the latter, secular ethics that has proven to be schmethics, then who will train better teachers to impart truly secular ethics on the generations to come? And where will they get the bribe money to go get those plum elementary school teache jobs for life? Need I go on? I am sure you catch my drift. Now don't go silent on us toleave us reeling in our own despair. Tell us how!The least you can do :-).O'm
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would be the best way to bring down the level of corruption to the minimum,if not completely,in a state like Assam? President A Kalam,in his Republic day address to the nation said " There are only three members of the society who can remove corruption ----They are father,mother and elementary school teacher."Is corruption then a problem of moral character ? Or,is it something to do with the transformation of our system?What is your view ?KJD_______________________________________________
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